Speaker 1: 0:59

Welcome to the making pass show. This is actually not the making pass show. This is, as you can probably tell if you can read, first episode of our new series called dog ear to dialogue. Hmm, dog ear dialogue is a play on the term for when you fold the corner of a good book to save your spot so you can come back to it the next time you can sit down. And With all that pattern I've been talking about our, our favorite books. We decided to, you know, make it a recurrent series, to give these books their due diligence, and so this won't be as much of a review, because these episodes will be. You know, essentially, whenever we have a book that we've both read and both enjoyed, we're going to give it the, the respect it deserves and do a full kind of breakdown and synopsis of the book Hidden on, essentially introduction of the book and its author and a brief synopsis that's spoiler free, so that way you can decide. If you haven't listened to the book I say listen because that's usually what I do now. You haven't listened to the book on audible or haven't read the book yet Gives you a chance to hear a little bit about it and then decide if you want to give it a shot or not. After that we're going to go into what we call the character corner, where Pat's going to Explain, kind of essentially who the main characters of a story are, or perhaps the most pivotal sub characters. Then I'll take us on over to the key points and themes of a book and then we'll both pretty much wrap it up with our takeaways from the novel and going forward. You know, if you want to provide your own feedback on the book if you've read it, we have kind of looked at our reading list of recommendations. You know we'd like to, we'd like to share your thoughts. So, whether that's you send us a voicemail, send us an email, reach us out to us on socials, whatever it may be, we'll kind of let everybody know how our listeners feel about the book. And then finally, with that, you know, we'll kind of wrap up our thoughts in a nice little sweet bow and maybe, if we have a book on the horizon, we'll allude to which one we'll read next or do a review of next. But again, this won't be like a serial, like bruise and reviews, where we try to crank them out. You know, two to two to four month, this is more of a as we find that good book, that dog eared novel, that romantic 50 shades of gray novella, we're going to give it to the good. Do do diligence it deserves and bring good you know diatribe about it to to those of you who are also like us and nerds and got you know bullied for reading a book. Did you ever see a gosh? I can't remember his name now, julian Julian. He was a YouTuber, made a bunch of music videos.

Speaker 2: 4:35

Julian the Mulk guy.

Speaker 1: 4:36

Yeah, yeah. And he did one called I'm reading a book. Oh, I haven't seen that one Excellent. It's just like his girlfriend keeps interrupting him oh yeah, things most men want to do and he just keeps on yelling at her. I'm reading a book girl. I'm reading a book. Don't you ever talk to me when I'm reading a book girl? I loved it, bro. I thought that was always so funny. Anyways, pat, today's book man, you just finished it. What a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 2: 5:06

Yeah, yeah, week or two ago, the we're hitting or just coming out with a heavy. We've been talking about it on the show too for a little while. But is Cormac McCarthy's blood meridian or the evening redness in the West and the you, you? You read this book a couple months ago and then you've been talking about it some. So peak my interest and I had to pick it up, and I've heard about Cormac McCarthy for a long time. I really haven't read any of his stuff, but like I just heard about him for a long time, I know of old country no country for old man and so I had to give this one a shot and it didn't disappoint. Yeah, I hope so, man, because I know, or it did you know like it left you empty inside?

Speaker 1: 5:59

I don't know.

Speaker 2: 6:01

But it definitely was worth my time, for sure.

Speaker 1: 6:07

Yeah, this book was pretty pivotal and impactful to me, just because I had never read a book like it. Listen to a book like it. I think Richard Poe is the narrator, of course, on the audiobook version is just absolute, all star. And the way he voices the characters and provides a just wait to the book, like just the way he is reading and annunciating the scenes, like you can tell it's just like good God, this is awful, like. This is so heavy and the imagery is so like every word he says is just another image in your mind. But with that we got some American primitivism in the background. So if you like this music, go ahead, give it a listen to and check it out. There's some really great playlists out there, but figure to be fitting to have some acoustic, primitive, primitive lyrical or lyric lists music in the background. While we examine what is often seen as and referred to as the great American book or the great American novel, because it is a very transparent examination of the West Blood Meridian, we're getting into a fox blood meridian or the evening redness in the West by Corbett McCarthy. It was written in 1985 and is known as an epic historical novel. I think I've described it to people as like the Odyssey or Iliad, through the lenses of just one of Odysseus's crewmates and if they all were like just way more depraved, like if there was no honor, no integrity. You know, I mean it's been described, genre wise, as a western or anti-western, and much of that is because it does a rather accurate portrayal to the violence and anti-hero or anti-heroics of those who you know were actually like historical figures or living in the West, especially down towards the border, and there is no glorification of anyone, whether Native Americans, whether Mexican army or American army, or straight up outlaw or cowboy. No one is above reproach in this novel. It's McCarthy's fifth book. That's past said. He wrote some other really popular bangers that you may have seen the movie adaptations of no Country for Old Men and the Road, two of his most popular stories. For those of you who are educated and readers and learned how to read in school, it's 351 pages, but if you're like us and smooth brained and love to just listen to narration, it's narrated by the great Richard Poe. A lot of people see this as McCarthy's magnum opus, his his pivotal, most excellent piece of work. Some have said it is the most horrifying book of the last century, the 20th century at least in regards to fiction. That was David Foster Wallace, who rest in peace. Taken too early, he was also a great American author. The book has been described as close to history as novels generally can get. It is based off of the actual writings of Samuel Chamberlain, who wrote a memoir known as my confession, the recollections of a rogue, and these are essentially the, because there's no real evidence to the counterpoint and because Samuel Chamberlain doesn't use a lot of checkable factual references in his memoir, there's no way to really say if it was true enough, but what he does discuss is like very easily to verify, as well as, like you know, the existence of specific individuals such as John Joel Glenn, the leader of the Glenton gang himself, as well as some of the other members that Chamberlain discusses and eludes to, such as Judge Holden can't remember his first name.

Speaker 2: 10:52

I don't know if he has a first name.

Speaker 1: 10:54

He's got first name, something Holden, but anyways, that memoir is rather short. It was written sometime in the 1800s, after Chamberlain's time, right in with the gang in 1849 and 1850, and it is the basis and the rumors and stories of the Glenton gang is the basis for McCarthy's novel. Here which, pat, if you want to, if you're ready, go ahead. Give us a brief, non-spoiler summary so we could set the stage.

Speaker 2: 11:27

Yes, I was looking for the form. I don't know if you don't think it's just Judge Holden, okay, I think I think it's just Judge Holden, but yeah. So this book is set in the 1850, circa 1850 pre-civil war, and what's going on at that time is we've the Mexican-American wars just kind of starting to wrap up down on the Mexico-Texas border. And this book kicks off with a runaway teenager who is kind of he's out to prove himself in the world and he's, but you can tell he's not sure what's really going on around him. And he, he, he, he runs into a couple different characters along the way in the beginning of this book but then ends up finding himself in a unofficial band of soldiers who have decided to just continue to wage the Mexican-American war, even though it's kind of over. They're just like they decided it wasn't over, so they're gonna keep on it. And he's young, early teenager at this point and he finds himself in this group of really even this group of guys are technically would be outlaws in their own way and they, he, he goes on some raids with them and eventually finds himself in another gang, a totally different gang of murderous scalp hunters. And they, he's our main character in this story and throughout the book we see kind of his development and we see the relationships he makes with each of these characters and these characters build throughout and and there's one guy who's really also the main guy and that's the judge. And and so the, without getting too much into the story, we're following the story of a kid in the West and how he gets shaped by, ultimately, this guy, the judge.

Speaker 1: 15:31

Yeah, and to, I would say, disillute anyone's usual stereotypes of the West. It is more about a, I would say like in not spoiling anything, the kid is our vehicle and I would think that just about any reader is as innocent as the kid is going into the gang and the judge is very much a, a tempter, of tempting with philosophy and well-reasoned arguments to lead men like the kid down a darker path. And so it's not like a we're not talking about like goodwill hunting, you know what I mean Like is that like the judges, robin Williams, like I, will help you discern what is right and wrong, Right, right. So with that we will begin into spoilers. So, just so everyone knows, that's our spoiler free kind of summary of the novel there to just let people know if it would be something they're interested in. If you're not really interested into it, then perhaps you know this kind of breakdown of its key points, themes, and you know the conflicts amongst its characters is enough for you to, you know, fancy yourself with some philosophy and then move on. But I really, you know, want people to understand that this series already is a recommendation of the book. Like, if we're going to make these episodes, it's us saying, hey, this is a great book, you should read it. Well, I would say you should listen to it, because it is a very hard read due to the way it's written. I don't know if you know this, pat, but there's no punctuation in the book other than periods, and there's the very powerful a lot of people call it the biblical and because it's just that when a sin should end, you know, and then this and this and this, and it just is like it's written in a way that I think makes sense like especially narrated. It doesn't sound run on or long, and when something's narrated, well, you don't look for the quotes.

Speaker 2: 17:40

I would use that excuse in high school to my teachers. My English teachers would be like you can't write this way. And I'd be like Hemingway wrote this way. And they'd be like they would just roll their eyes and be like that's cause he's Hemingway, go do it the right way. I'm like dang it. Yeah, that's funny. I'm just that's how they try to do it. It didn't get away with it. It didn't work for me.

Speaker 1: 18:04

It didn't work too well for you. Bro, one time I straight up copy, pasted the script from an episode of Samurai Jack and just changed the names and changed the format from script to story and I got an A plus on, like a paper I had to write for creative writing. Oh nice, it was awesome. I was really happy my English teacher had not watched an episode of Samurai Jack. But anyways, pat, if you wouldn't mind embarking on this journey.

Speaker 2: 18:32

Of who's in this story, yeah, yeah. So, like I was saying, there's this kid who is a runaway, but we don't know his name ever. He's just the kid, the kid, and so some of these, all these characters, have names and we'll say their names at the beginning and we're going to try to stick to kind of referring to them almost as their titles so that we can, you know, we don't get confused. But the kid's kind of an easy one, because he is just the kid and he was born in Tennessee. But it's funny because at the beginning of the book he's it says that he's wearing like stuff that's in Vogue and the East Coast, oh sure. And so I feel like he's. He's found himself kind of headed out West from Tennessee, but now he's, I feel like he's already trying to be a gangster, like he's just like wearing like these. He's already trying to dress like a man. Yeah, he's trying to dress like a man, try to dress like the end thing. But then he found himself in the. He just went the wrong direction for it, you know, and kind of he even has this like New Yorker chip on his shoulder. Yeah, like street kid vibe.

Speaker 1: 19:47

Yeah, I mean, he's that narrated in an annoying accent, but like I could easily read a stuff like yeah, what do you want? Doc? You know what I mean, like like the. I'm trying to think of the classic cartoon character like not Bugs Bunny, but kind of Bugs Bunny ish you know of, like Oran Renaes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:05

For sure, and so the this is definitely the character that has the most development throughout the text, I think. I think because we're going to work our way through development of these characters too, or the undevelopment of some of them, but he definitely has the biggest story arc. He is the protagonist, if you could call him that. I would say I can't. The vehicle, yeah, the vehicle. You're going to call the vehicle.

Speaker 1: 20:30

You occupy his mind? Yeah, cause he's pulling you through the story. He is certainly not a good person.

Speaker 2: 20:36

Right, right, and I think that he, I think he maybe parts of him want to be, but he's just not. Oh yeah, but he's just not.

Speaker 1: 20:49

I think that's you know. Across several characters we see them almost make a moment of doing the right thing or being good. Can I ask you know, just so you can answer it, how, how much time do we spend from the perspective of the kid versus other characters in the book, just so readers and people know if they if they haven't listened to the book yet?

Speaker 2: 21:14

I'd probably say like 60%. I might even go higher, yeah, higher.

Speaker 1: 21:21

Like it, like from the point of a third person view, like understanding the story. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:27

Cause there's a couple of times when it totally leaves the kid or the kid's not in the story for a little bit. But then, yeah, you know, I'd say I'd say like 60 to 80%. It's like, yeah, probably higher than that 80% is where, like you're seeing through his eyes or hearing a story, he's being told to get that and the it mentions at the beginning that he had is just kind of like ready for mindless violence and he finds himself in a gang, which is the worst place for someone like this to be, because it just unleashes his someone who, someone who already is like, thinking to be a man, I should be violent and immediately be brought into the most liberally restrained group of men. I forget the exact quote, but in his first kill it says something along the lines of like the trigger broke, the man fell as if it done it a hundred times, like it was just like natural to him. It wasn't like this. Oh my God, I'm changed now. It's like I just like he did that action was just doing the thing. He was actually just what he was.

Speaker 1: 22:51

And he's young too, because we see he struggles to get alcohol Right For a long time in the novel. It's until he has the gang kind of getting the booze for him wherever they go. Right, or people just like oh shit, this kid's one of them crazy kids who thinks he's a, he's a gunfighter and he might kill me if I don't give him a beer, because that's how ignorant he is of the way the world works.

Speaker 2: 23:18

And I'd forgotten about that, because at the beginning of it I thought he was just like an alcoholic, like like I didn't realize just how young he was. Yeah, I thought that it was like to be in the West in 1840 and someone's like you might be a little young to drink.

Speaker 1: 23:32

Yeah, yeah, you're young, right.

Speaker 2: 23:34

So I thought, I thought he was like. I thought he was just like a full blown alcohol. That's why they weren't serving him, but probably it was because he was just so young.

Speaker 1: 23:42

And, but then he murders a man right there.

Speaker 2: 23:44

Oh yeah, you know, oh, yeah, yeah, and so the as we go into these themes and more of the story with the characters you know, he has, he develops his, I think he never loses his conscience Not that he's I'd say he's not a good man, but he never loses his conscience in that like along the way he's, he really has this. He does have this guy we'll talk about in a second the priest on one shoulder and the judge on the other, kind of like talking in his ear and he's like swayed to both sides and that it has internal struggle towards making the decisions for certain times in comparison to other characters who just are. There's no, there's no like flow chart of like of a conscience inside of them making decisions.

Speaker 1: 24:42

I think we see it with some.

Speaker 2: 24:44

Yeah, we did you know what I mean? Like where?

Speaker 1: 24:46

we see them get that glimmer of a conscience, that glimmer of a code.

Speaker 2: 24:52

I'd say, yeah, that's what you're not saying. There's none of them, but there are a couple in this who don't have one. Yeah, you know just that it doesn't exist, because he does do acts and help people in ways and show mercy in some ways throughout that, like other other people wouldn't.

Speaker 1: 25:13

And I would say at that point, like to the reader you know the times where the where their kid debates mercy or shows mercy or shows help is almost as like offensive, in contrast as the violence is offensive, and like unexpected, like, as the reader, you'd be like what, really, you're not going to kill this guy? Mm-hmm, like you're, you're gonna choose. This guy is the one you spare, right, this guy's already dying. Why not end his suffering? Mm-hmm. Hey, like you hear how many people the kid puts down, how many he shoots, how many he Clubs, whatever it is, you know how many he he might kill and doesn't even Care to see if they're dead or just injured, mm-hmm. And then, like, when he shows mercy, it's almost offensive, like it's almost a protest, I think, to the reader to hear him Be merciful or debate the choice of mercy, because you're, like you know very many, like more towards the end of the book, right, we like what the fuck are you doing? Pull the trigger, right, and all that said, I I just think, like that is a very weird part of like this book is. Like there's the shock of the violence, but there then there's also the shock of like damn, this bad man's really gonna choose right now to be Conscious and make a moral choice? Mm-hmm, and it's not just the kid, but you know you know I'm saying for sure, no, for sure.

Speaker 2: 26:51

All right, the next guy we're gonna talk about is captain glanton, and where he's glanton, we're also gonna call him the captain, but we'll also say glanton throughout this. But he's, um, like you said earlier, that based off of a someone who actually lived and in a fictionalized version, and he, he's the leader of the gang. But is he maybe also to in some aspects, because I'd maybe argue that the judge has him so entangled In into evil.

Speaker 1: 27:28

Let him think he's in charge the judge doesn't like he doesn't.

Speaker 2: 27:31

Well, he doesn't actually even need to let him think he's in charge. He can be in charge because he will do what the judge wanted. He will do like as the commander's intent will be Will be done and the judge can just sit back and and sit second chair while glanton Just does the does the things that the judge was like has corrupted his mind into.

Speaker 1: 27:56

Ultimately, I saw a footnote on something that I think it was reddit we're. Someone briefly said in there like you know, I, you know, I think it's fair to say, pat, that you know I read this like there is a lot of, a Lot of debated, debatably anti-christian conjecture, and not that like Christianity is bad or Christians are bad, but just like there's parts in this book where it's like here is a Twist of this biblical story, here is a perversion of this word of God, and then there's also you know the the decay of Christianity. And I think, like I saw this and I re stuck out to me. But someone was like glan is really kind of like any one of the Judges or kings out of the book of judges or the book of kings. Hmm, that just is like Doing the thing. Everyone's listening to him, mm-hmm, but he's really just operating under what God tells him to do and the judge is God, hmm you know, and like I was, like I guess I kind of see that right. you know it doesn't need, like the judge doesn't need to show he's in charge of glan Mm-hmm, because everyone's looking to glan, because he's the judges Messenger the judges, you know, profit or whatever in a in an odd way right, right, you know, I think that's right on with this character, because there's times throughout it where, yeah, it's just that the judges, and even they're, or really doesn't even do any of the work, but he's just kind of must forget about a couple times. Yeah, he's just so in the background.

Speaker 2: 29:38

Yeah, yeah, because his, his, his purposes being obtained through this guy and this gang. And so Glanton, he's ruthless bloodshed guy, scalp hunter. And the interesting piece of this too is I was Looking up that, you know, because we hear about scalping and in this thing that was done in the West and there was once we some argument about who started scalping or whatever. You know it's like, if ever is like, the French started it, not the Indians, or we know like the book opens up with that epitaph.

Speaker 1: 30:17

Oh yeah, that has been around since possibly the dawn of man, right, it's like it's like it's been like a If you, yeah, if you're going biblical too. It's like you know, give me them skins, yeah, yeah, like there's. Scalp the cock, yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:32

Well, what is that a?

Speaker 1: 30:33

thousand fours kids is a thousand cock scouts.

Speaker 2: 30:35

Yeah, it's brutal and it's yeah, yeah, showing up with a head in a bag and these things and so. But so in the mid 1830s to the 1850s in Mexico there really was Scalp hunters, not just because so people were scalping all around, it was a thing to show someone was dead, shawnee people you'd kill, to how good of a warrior you were, whatever it was but it was a method by which to get paid. At this time in Mexico, specifically, mexican government wanted Scalps, scalps of the Apache Indians, to prove that they were dead. And I was reading this little article that that there was also a lots and many accounts, apaches bringing in other Apache scalps. Oh, yeah, like it was like to get some money, yeah, and it was. So, you know, could this, this, you know, within the tribe, this group versus this group, you know, and it's like the Mexican government wants this other group gone and so one group's gonna, other families gonna go take him out or whatever. So it kind of what I'm getting at is it doesn't matter who done it or who started it, they were all doing it. Everybody was doing this thing. Yeah, and it was a, but it really was a thing at the time. This isn't just like a, it's not gratuitous for gratuity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So this was the way they went and Mentioned in this article. To that they did bring their ears as well. Yeah, toad vine with his. Right, he had, it was it was actually the what's his name, but Kat bath cat, bath cat, yeah, yeah, yeah, so the awful name, really weird guy bath cat dude, that is such a nasty name. And so bath cat was one of the characters, but they had a, had a necklace of ears and the. That brings me to another character, on top of which was was was brown, hold on, wait before you get there.

Speaker 1: 32:43

Yeah, give him well, this thought just came to me. Yeah, I think be cool to like give readers or listeners of the podcast and let them argue with us Mm-hmm about who we see it playing the character. Because, for those who don't know, the movies been picked up by Several times, be I mean the books been picked up several times to be made a movie, but apparently Regency pictures is finally doing it and it's really gonna happen. It was announced in April 2023 that it's really gonna be a movie now, hmm, and there is like power behind the name is. So, with that, I think we should start saying with these characters you know, as you describe them to us, and give a picture of them to the Reader, who they are, kind of, the things they do, given an idea of who you think could play them. Hmm, I would say this, like for the kid I I Used to think Matthew Roderick when he was a young. Matthew Roderick, rod Roderick, maybe, gentle face, I would say like dude, like young, young Dave Franco, like Dave Franco when he was still actually like in his 20s.

Speaker 2: 33:56

He's short, he kind of has a mean face.

Speaker 1: 33:58

He's kind of got a little bit of a mirror-looking face when he's like, you know, not made pretty boy but nowadays for kid actors, I do think that Like someone who could really kind of fit the bill for this young youth teenager and do it pretty well. Mm-hmm is the actor who played Joffrey and Game of Thrones. Oh yeah, cuz they like you give him, like you just make him look dirty, mm-hmm, and you give him like that, like a kind of like a dirty black, brown hair, mm-hmm. He's still a youthful looking young man. His name is Jack Gleason, I think, or something. Maybe not Jack Gleason, I feel like that's incorrect. But, um, I could see him being like just these, you know, crooked smile, looking mean, as piss kid, you know Mm-hmm and like, but there's something about him that's still like as a viewer, you're like man, this kid would be so bad if he got his axe straight, mm-hmm, you know, like he might be redeemed. So I see him as that. And then for the captain mm-hmm. I've always picture the captain as being pretty much just. I think he kind of already played the character and and the revenant, but Tom Hardy oh yeah, like. I could see Tom Hardy just being this menace. You know this evil Mm-hmm. But what do you think? Is there anyone that you see that you have in mind? Who could, who could be these for?

Speaker 2: 35:30

glanton or the kid even. Yeah for them. I think those are good ones, I like those ones. Yeah, the Cuz Granton is this guy who also goes and ends up, I think, his demise. He ends up going kind of crazy and I think that We'll get into later on more thoughts about this. You prefer to the judge, but like I think he's been completely fully like enveloped by the judge, like the cancer has spread all the way just like until like To just the come to, to throw out his entire psyche and he's just mm-hmm, which is, I think, the way that I like, that I like the way you said that you like he's.

Speaker 1: 36:22

He can't, sir, like cancer spread.

Speaker 2: 36:23

Yeah, it's all zero, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 36:25

There's not any ounce of him left to be redeemed, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 36:29

Yeah, yeah, it's just gone and then and he implodes himself in that way. But Another character that I want to talk about, who's? We're not going to go through all the characters of the gang, but this guy, brown, we're gonna talk about him because he is. I Think he's a good depiction of kind of like who this gang was of people. And he's I mean Brown is just a violent deputy in the gang. He wears a Necklace of like a hundred human ears on it of people he's killed. He's also got an ear necklace. So he are you sorry? So he sorry, he. Actually he comes to wear the necklace and then starts to add to it. So he takes bath guys more and that cat dies, he takes the necklace and starts adding to it. But you know, it's just like this. He's got this nasty, crusty necklace around his Body and he he's the one of the only characters who gets like his own chapter where he Ends up in jail and there's a young guard there and he just totally deceives the guard About if he lets him out they'll split the money that's buried down the desert. They get out in the desert and Brown just kills him. You know, it's like just this. The guy didn't even see it coming, you know, but mm-hmm, and he's just just a murdering criminal and the and all these guys in the gang are. You know these guys can go full Anakin on the Sand people village. You know they can go in there, Rec the whole thing.

Speaker 1: 38:13

They want to. It's not that they can't yeah, like they look for it right. Right and so and if there's no meaning this to it, you know. I mean it's like None of them operate on a path of vengeance.

Speaker 2: 38:25

Mm-hmm, it's about making coin and continue and like using that coin to make more coin, yeah, and like, just so they can go keep doing it. Like there's not even like a there's no exit plan, exit strategy. It's just a revolving door of Kill somebody, get money. Drink the whiskey by the woman, kill people, get some nice money, yeah, and and him and another guy, toad vine, meet their end at the end of a rope. You know, as, as that goes for lots of you know Wild West gangsters which even that is like.

Speaker 1: 39:07

You know, I Don't know there's he. There's just something about that. That is Like when we get Brown's death, even though he's not, like it's such a big character in the story, mm-hmm, there's just something about it that like makes the Judge bigger, mm-hmm, you know what I mean. Like Brown's a bad man, but I Mean he could still be hung just like anyone else, mm-hmm, and like there's something about him just hanging off, like something such a menial, the same as every other criminal death, and then, like this idea of the judges character, which you know I don't want to spoil it- I know you're good to him, but it's just like it's for some reason that death to me made it so Much more like made the judge seems so much bigger, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 39:55

And I agree. I agree because because also the flip late, it laid in the book. When he kind of comes back and re-encounters the judge, he goes from like this really powerful guy because of how violent he is, to at the feet of the judge, just just a dog, yep, just subservient, yeah, just scared and like and powerless and so wait, hold on before I move on.

Speaker 1: 40:23

Yeah for him. Yeah, who do you see? Who could play Brown?

Speaker 2: 40:26

Oh man, he's probably too old now, but you know, the guy from the Patriot whose little ginger kid dies. Hmm, either one I don't remember the one who makes the joke about eating dogs and has a laugh, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:45

Yeah, I get, I get.

Speaker 2: 40:46

We're saying yeah, I can see that like the long greasy hair kind of like in around.

Speaker 1: 40:49

He was in Pirates of the Caribbean too, as something for someone. Yeah, I could see that I. I personally, when I hear that character, I think of a Josh Brolin, when he was playing the main antagonist, and and what was the remake with him in it? Oh Gosh, why was it a Josh Brolin? I just watched it recently and it was him and Jeff Bridges and the remake of a John Wayne Western.

Speaker 2: 41:25

Oh, Was he in a rooster cockburn?

Speaker 1: 41:29

Yeah, what's the? Richard Carpenter at the true grit true great, yeah, and Josh Brolin is the main antagonist in it and like you don't even, it's hard to even recognize him as Josh Brolin, like that's how ugly and mean looking he looks and how dumb he looks, and I could just see him being a good brown.

Speaker 2: 41:49

All right, I like it. Like it pulling out a name I was gonna use later, but hey, the yeah I mean now he might be played out as the overlord of all of all evil. He's been Thanos, yeah. I know yeah, even though I think you, if he hadn't done that, it fit. You fit towards the end there. But uh, all right, next guy we were talking about is Tobin the priest. I Don't mean I don't think they tell us how this guy even ended up in the gang Like he was. He was a priest and then he wasn't, and then he was in a gang and then the judge showed up in the gang also, but he was in the gang before the judge and so it it doesn't. I wish we got some origin on how he, how he, came to find himself there, but we don't know. We just know that this man of God who kind of still likes to quote some you know chapter and verse also is in a murdering gang of Scout punters and While he is in this rotten gang he probably is the most moral, upstanding Person who does have a conscience and who's also. I really see him as the classic example of the angel and the devil on the shoulders, mm-hmm, of somebody whispering in like a person's ear. He is for the kid, he's the angel on the shoulder, like the last whisper of it. Yeah, yeah, and so his he is the priest turns out later in the book that we find out he wasn't even actually a priest all the way. He just was like a. He was just kind of Like an associate to the priest or whatever so, and we don't know how he ended up with the group but he and we don't know what his. We know how all the other characters like meet their demise, but we don't know about his. He's just gone.

Speaker 1: 44:09

Yeah, you know, and that's you know. That was something I Originally I was gonna touch on it as a theme, but I just felt like there was better themes to put our time on. But the ambiguity and deceitfulness of the novel. There's the unreliable narrator in which is often, when the judges read, retelling a story, mm-hmm. But there's also the unreliable narrator in which, like Tobin at one point is retelling a grandiose story, mm-hmm, and no one ever else talks about that story Mm-hmm. But we just have to take Tobin's word at like this, you know, borderline divine intervention at the hands of the judge, mm-hmm. That it seems like you know, like you, you hear this story and it's like there's no fucking way, like there's no way that happened. But, um, all I said, like the fate of Tobin the priest, the fate of Brown at one point is like Very ambiguous. And then it's almost like if the kid hadn't seen him hanged, I would have believed it, right, I would have thought he had died another way, right. So there's just like things like that throughout the novel that are there's like the kind of ambiguity, ambiguity and like Unreliable narrator and like all you can do is hope that toad vine, I Got it found somewhere to like at least do some good with what little life he had left.

Speaker 2: 45:35

You know Mm-hmm, but who do you see as being told I mean it being the priest being Tobin, hmm well, here's because I think, a little theory about him, like I Can't know if we talked about this on the last podcast or After we'd stop recording, so to say it again, but I Wonder if the priest Was Aware of how much he had let the judge into his life, like a Like he knew what was good in the world, but he also knew that he had fallen to it and so he was just His only good act he could do and with his life at this point was to just try to push the kid in the right direction. Hmm, and he was like had some sort of self-awareness, as maybe a man the cloth would have, of the introspection on his life, to know about the thorns in his side or the things that he's fallen to or the things in his life that are Messed up, but to know what is good and right and just to try to push someone else towards it a little bit.

Speaker 1: 46:56

And so I Think he's a moth caught in the lamp light. Hmm and only at the end of the novel do you see him break free of it right and realize like it's too late. His wings are burnt, mm-hmm. He's been ding in his head against the wall or the glass. Then he knows he ain't got long for this world, mm-hmm, and he's begging the kid to snuff out that, that fire, that tempting, you know light. That is the judge and it's just one of those things that, like I think you're right, bro, I think he was enraptured by the judge, totally enraptured for some time, and somehow the kid and maybe the kids not complete To gravity, but like mm-hmm times where he shows a little bit of morality is what snaps Tobin out of it.

Speaker 2: 47:42

I don't know mm-hmm, because I agree and I think the person who could play this well Would maybe be Ben Foster.

Speaker 1: 47:54

You think he's not. You think he's old enough.

Speaker 2: 47:57

Ben Foster? Yeah, I think he probably is now. I think he's because he's probably pushing In 50s. What hell it has been, foster.

Speaker 1: 48:05

I've also seen say, people say Is it Chris Pine that is with Ben Foster in Heller Highwater, or is it? It's the other pine brother? Let me see.

Speaker 2: 48:19

Yeah, no, he is. Yeah, it's Chris. It's pretty great yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:24

I think I've heard people say Chris Pine would be Chris Pines like now, old enough to be glintin.

Speaker 2: 48:29

I was like I could see that, mm-hmm dude.

Speaker 1: 48:32

I could also see Ben Foster being glint, because I've seen him be such a bad dude in 310 to Yuma Right that, and that's what I mean with with been Foster, is the like as the priest, because like also.

Speaker 2: 48:42

But have you seen Ben Foster? He saw me faster and lone survivor I did. He was great, like you know, he's just this like, like right when he died you were like that is a good man dying, that's a good man died, it's like he could. And so because of like the 310 to Yuma guy he can be and the that good man dying that he can be, I feel like he could play this like Spectrum. That would just confuse you to the point where you're like I love this man and I just saw him do something horribly evil. I don't know. I think, how to do deal with that correct me if I'm wrong man.

Speaker 1: 49:19

You know you read it a lot more recently than I did. It's a lot more fresh your mind, but I think it was a choice on Cormac's and a cat's car thing now and I don't know if he's ever come out and said it. I don't think we ever see or the kid ever described seeing the priest murder. I don't think like he's in the game.

Speaker 2: 49:36

He's around. He's around while they're scalping, but I don't think we ever see the priest kill right, because I think I've got, when we get psyched to the end of this, some other theories like maybe, maybe, maybe he did kill, maybe didn't sure, maybe it was impossible for him to kill anything Because maybe he wasn't real, like no, I think he was a hundred percent real.

Speaker 1: 50:05

But anyways, I I hear, I hear your vote, your nomination. I have fully rejected for Willem Dafoe. Oh damn, I Think will defoe it like as soon as I heard. Tobin in his voice and your way he's described with like no, he talks with this underbite kid, you know, in like this whisper of a warning, I'm just like dude. That's willem Dafoe like, as will defoe begging Peter Parker to be a better man than him. You know, I mean like it's like, and so I think I can't see anyone else out there. Like the whole novel, I just saw willem to fill my head, mm-hmm. I see a lot of people online, though. Say Brian Cranston, who you know, walter White.

Speaker 2: 50:50

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:51

No, I was like yeah, yeah, I just started because he's so bald most of the time. Yeah, yeah, but all right, cool.

Speaker 2: 51:00

Next character, next person up, okay, his.

Speaker 1: 51:06

Most important character in the whole novel. Well, we have got one before that. No, no, this one is the most important character in the whole novel, idiot yeah. All right.

Speaker 2: 51:16

All right, hey, it could be, but so the idiot is. You know, we have About three quarters of the way through the book. Somewhere in there starts to play together. But the three quarters way through the book we have this Scene where in this very small run downtown there is a guy who keeps a. You know, envalid for modern times will be a person with special needs in a cage, and let's people pay to come look at him in a cage.

Speaker 1: 51:49

It's his brother and look at my. Hey, come pay money to look at my special needs brother. Yeah, maybe not even special needs, maybe just schizophrenic, who knows? I think.

Speaker 2: 51:57

I think it's like he wasn't always that way.

Speaker 1: 52:01

Hmm, right.

Speaker 2: 52:04

His mom couldn't keep up with taking care of him. Oh good, once she died at a giveaway. So I mean, if you got the DSM five out, you could probably load them up with a couple of things or whatever.

Speaker 1: 52:15

No kid in the likes, but you know the careful saying that acronym really good, obsess on people of the DSM five.

Speaker 2: 52:23

Sorry, it is the DSM seven now. By the way, they came up with a couple more things and they're surprisingly or not, but the. They got rid of Asperger's and added like 500 things. Oh nice, yeah, so Progress, but the anyways this. I'm not gonna speak to this as from a modern perspective I'm gonna talk about as it was in the time. Yeah, you know it's just like you have to you right, because in there it is, the. It's essentially freak show. You know where you come, pay money, see this thing Drilling and crapping on itself and go, oh my god, I don't even know what the like draw was, necessarily, but I guess I'll still a horror of a grown man, yeah, rubbing shit on himself, right, right, just like so to like the. That's what it was a freak show attraction and the. He was being exploited by his brother and, interestingly, throughout this, the only person who like there's there's two people who show this. The idiot.

Speaker 1: 53:32

Any Mercy or love or Care care, I would say care, which is I.

Speaker 2: 53:42

Can't remember her name. It's Sarah, sarah's name in the yeah, Sarah Be something right. So sit, so Sarah does, who seems like an upstanding woman, and then godly woman, and then the judge Mm-hmm who saves him from drowning in the river. So because Because Sarah we get, are we getting into this later, the whole thing, or? Yeah, yeah, well, I mean it's fine talking to you so so, but basically, and this is what goes down, is so you're?

Speaker 1: 54:09

broke in. This is a.

Speaker 2: 54:10

Christian woman, christian woman breaks him out and says this is unacceptable, takes him out, clothes him. Then that night he's naked again, runs into the river, starts drowning and the judge scoops him up and Saves him from the river and from then on, essentially, the idiot is then his pet Throughout the rest of the story which, can I just say, mm-hmm, is insane.

Speaker 1: 54:37

It's absolutely insane when the judge pulls the idiot out of the river because earlier, maybe a couple chapters before, yeah, we see the judge takes some of his gold to buy some puppies from some Mexican kids, mm-hmm. And throws them in the air and shoots them as they land in this like River that flows through the town, mm-hmm, just to entertain himself for two seconds. Mm-hmm moves on the fact that, like that's the way, he just carelessly disregards these things, mm-hmm, but somehow he finds value in this, this thing in the river, and goes into rescue it, rather than just using it as like a laughing target practice, which I mean, I was like again. This was another moment with the idiot where I was offended. By the contrary. It wasn't that like the act of it itself was offensive, it's just like this. Is this offended? My expectations, my expectations, were to just grind my teeth and shake my head as I listened to the judge chuckle and laugh wholeheartedly firing rounds into the river while the idiot struggles and flails around, which.

Speaker 2: 55:56

This sounds bad.

Speaker 1: 55:57

Wheels turning.

Speaker 2: 55:59

Yeah. So once again speaking to the story, not how I feel, about how we treat people who live right now, but could there be a argument to be made about the judge? The most merciless act he could do would be to keep him alive.

Speaker 1: 56:19

Keep him alive in his misery, yeah, in torment?

Speaker 2: 56:23

I think so, oh yeah for sure, Because if there is nothing good in the judge, then would that be, you know?

Speaker 1: 56:36

to basically keep this person in its torment, bring out all you can out of the rag dude.

Speaker 2: 56:40

Yeah, keep it in torment, get all the torment you can out of it and then subject it and enslave it or what I don't know. But so that's the idiot. I just wanted to bring that character up because it's a very this interesting character that I think it's put in there, you know.

Speaker 1: 56:59

I think the imagery, though too, of like, I think the character is super important. Yeah, because it is at the peak of the judge's madness, lawlessness, chaos, that the thing that's beside him is not glanton anymore, it is a feral, wild, just absolute, most primal man on a leash. And I think, like if we think of the judge, we'll get to. You know all how he's described. If we think of him as in the way he's alluded to in the novel, then of course, what is the type of man on that leash? It's the most primal, ferocious, feral, deranged man, a man that resembles nothing of civilization, right and like. I think that's just kind of like to show, like to fall to the judge is to be one who surrenders themselves to like the most violent, primal, immediate satisfaction, to desires, individual. But you were always on that leash Like you will never be, you won't be allowed to die.

Speaker 2: 58:22

It's yeah, so you know what I mean. Like glanton was maybe on the leash.

Speaker 1: 58:26

There was no way the judge would have allowed Glanton to die. Had he had the, I don't think he would have allowed it. I think he would have kept Glanton alive and on a leash for as long as he can. I think the only reason he was unable to is because of the circumstances in the novel.

Speaker 2: 58:40

You know what I mean, yeah, but anyways final character man, Final character, skipping actors on that one.

Speaker 1: 58:48

Oh wait, yeah, oh no, no, no, jared Leto, jared Dude, just let him off the leash. Like you know figuratively, but put Jared Leto on that leash dude. No, he's going to be the best fucking. I'm not saying Jared Leto is an idiot. That's what Pat says. I'm saying that Jared Leto is going to.

Speaker 2: 59:07

He's a tortured soul.

Speaker 1: 59:08

Yeah, he's a tortured soul, and you tell him like hey, we've given you the role of the idiot in the blood meridian movie. Jared Leto is going to commit like Jared Leto is going to literally cover himself in his own shit. Go full method, yeah, yeah. Or just give it to Brad Pitt and let Brad pick you like an opportunity he's never had before. Yeah, brad Pitt, like people will come watch this movie to see you be an idiot. Like absolutely shock value to the senses He'd be terrifying.

Speaker 2: 59:37

He may never come out.

Speaker 1: 59:39

No, that's what I'm saying. Like you do that movie with Jared Leto as the idiot and like that's his legacy, that's his, that's his Heath Ledger Joker, his coup de gras.

Speaker 2: 59:50

You know what I mean. Oh yeah, all right, so I think we're going to the next guy, but I want you to do him. I think you have a lot to say about the judge. I get a lot of feelings about him.

Speaker 1: 1:00:07

The judge Holden, can you, can you give me the background?

Speaker 2: 1:00:11

Yeah, I will give the, like him as a human Him as a man, yeah, and you can, you can tell about your feelings about him, okay, and then we can move in, because I think it's, I want to know your feelings too. Oh, yeah, for sure. But so the first time we see the judge, he just he described very specifically as a large, hairless, somewhat pale, big, bright teeth, albino man, no, no, no eyebrows, yeah, no, does it say red eyes?

Speaker 1: 1:00:51

I can't remember if it alludes to him, I mean like reddish eyes or not.

Speaker 2: 1:00:55

I don't know if it does, but he doesn't even need him, for like this His appearance is so just grabs you, and the first time we see him, the he's just. There's a town hall meeting or a church service going on and there's a priest in there and he just walks in and accuses the priest of all these horrible things and all the people just instantly turn on the priest and they we don't know what really happens of the priest. You could assume he's either hung or kicked out of town.

Speaker 1: 1:01:31

I think he runs away, he runs out of town, he runs out of town.

Speaker 2: 1:01:35

He gets away and and then we see next scene is a judge in the bar talking to some guys having some drinks. They're like man, how did you know all that stuff about him? He's like. I never met that guy a day in my life. So we just learned that the judge. In the first encounter we see with a judge, he completely wrecked somebody's life in a few sentences, with some extreme accusations and being completely false, made up on the spot, bearing false witness to him and just on the spot, just destroys this guy's life. And so the judge. There's lots of theories about who the judge is, what he is. Throughout the book we see him be a sadistic killer, a, an expert in many worldly things, as he's, you know. He's like a, you know, an anthropologist and a biologist with all these notebooks.

Speaker 1: 1:02:41

So much knowledge. He just has knows so many languages.

Speaker 2: 1:02:45

Oh yeah, he can. He can speak to any man and that's where to Tobin in the. The priest says. Everybody has a story about when they saw him for the first time. Every man, every man about that every man seen him somewhere at some point in time, which is very telling about who he may be, and he's kind of an expert in everything he does. And everything he does is just of the world, whether it's dancing or playing an instrument, or being able to draw something, make a sketch or or document about an animal, or how he can kill a man, or how he can reason or argue with a man, how he can manipulate and influence somebody. He's just the ultimate being at being an expert in all things of the world. That's what I think about. That guy is kind of you know what, how he's presented as a person, as a person, as a human.

Speaker 1: 1:03:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I think he's debatably. Debatably. Imagine this idea that, just as God has the ability to take the form of man, so does Satan, but unlike God, he's not all knowing, he's not omnipresent. What's the other one? It's omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. All knowing, all present, all.

Speaker 2: 1:04:33

I'm missing it now.

Speaker 1: 1:04:34

Yeah, I think. Omnipresent, all knowing everywhere at once. That's what it is Everywhere at once, knowing everything. And no, that's all present. I can't remember what it is, but if Satan was to take this form of a man and able to manifest himself, he might not be all knowing, but sure he would know a lot because he's been around for a long time and he certainly wouldn't be able to be everywhere at once, but he would have quite the presence wherever he was and many would know who know him. And I think that is like very much the character of the judge and it's even in the very like beginning of the book described like the priest. When the judge holding comes and makes these accusations, the priest seems somehow in the priest, not Tobin, but the priest who's like a nameless character that this judge is making accusations against. He points out I was like can you not see that is the devil himself, satan, and it's, you know, like the people don't see it. But this, this priest, seems to have like a fervor of fear of like my God, that is Satan walked into my tent and there's several times where we see the judge and his knowledge that he wields seems like knowledge that is outside of what can be attained with the current means of, like life expectancy, technology and time of time, that one has right and I think the biggest thing that stands out to me, and I don't know if I want to be fair, because I'm sure there's a really popular Reddit post about this book that mentions it and kind of goes over it. But the judge has parables like Jesus, but his parables are so wicked and even the language he uses them are as wicked and offensive and not remotely resembling the language Christ uses, other than the fact that it's a parable, right, he, he, he actively uses demeaning, derogatory slurs when it adds nothing to the parable. And in that we see that, like you said, he keeps this journal. He's this biologist, he's this geologist, he's this historian. And one thing the judge prides himself on doing is taking the best notes and drawing like immaculate artistic renderings in this notebook of these things he finds, whether they are like literal ancestral stories carved in rock or like cave paintings or just beautiful artwork made by these Native Americans or Meso Americans. He draws them so that that that way there is a copy of a simulation of them that exists in his journal, and then he destroys them, and to me that is like the most like revealing sign of his despise for mankind and despise for God, and that anytime you find something that's beautiful, that would be a part that might be. You know, if you were a Christian, you might assign its beauty to God's God's beauty and creation, like God having a beautiful, creative mind to create a world that has so much beauty as a reflection of his glory. Right, you might say that the blue mean of the blossoming of this flower in the desert is resembling God's beauty, or the culture and the way the various cultures design art and jewelry and stories with their own tribes, as a reflection of God's ability and desire for people to know him. These cultures want to be known and people to know their stories, and Satan abhors that. And what is bet Like? What is it like a better insult to God than destroying what he's created? And the only, the only form of it existing is Satan's own creation of it, which is the these drawings and these notes on what it was and where it was and what it looked like, so that the way, the only way you would know it is if you knew him and if you came to him seeking it. And to me that is like this, this, like desire to destroy those things, so that way only he has them, and that he doesn't even have them because of course he can't make the similar works. All he can do is mimic it because he's not omnipotent.

Speaker 2: 1:09:14

He's not omnipotent. Which is powerful?

Speaker 1: 1:09:16

Yeah, and so with that, I find this illusion of the judge as Satan, as evil incarnate, as like, very real. I think it is. Like I think that is really truly Corwin McCarthy's intention, because even at the end we're getting into themes and key points here, right, but like, even at the end, the judge seems to have this divine presence that men are incapable of harming him, like there's several times where he's got a gun point at him dead rights and they cannot follow through and pull the trigger, whereas they've killed many other men but, the idea of maybe killing something bigger than a man, something greater than a man is and they come to that realization is like it's kind of that idea of like what if you had always heard this person is saying this person's the anti Christ and you're like, no, he's not always not I could point a gun at him and pull the trigger and he died. And then the moment for that to be proven true comes up and you realize if you pull the trigger and he doesn't die, then surely he is this evil and surely you are fucked and like that idea to me is like very powerful. And in that, the final words of the book outside of the epilogue, you know, the last chapter is that, no matter what, he will keep on dancing. The judge keeps on dancing his dance and he will always be. And I think there is a transition in the book where he goes from being a physical manifestation of evil as a person to being a psychological manifestation of the evil within one Right. We can dive into that too when we get to more of the key points, but I don't know. I would love to know your thoughts on that. I would love to know how you feel about it. I could have just ripped off a bunch of mumble jumbo pat, and I'm okay with that because I've spent a lot of time thinking about it. There's a lot of, there's a lot of things to dive into about him, right, he's such a large character.

Speaker 2: 1:11:23

Yeah, no, I think like a big part of this book and the way that it's written is even like in. Even in the way that it's written of not having punctuation, the author is letting us decide what we want about the whole thing.

Speaker 1: 1:11:42

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 1:11:43

You know, he's like. I Don't know who did say that, because you don't know who like, if it doesn't say, such and such said that. You don't know who said it during the conversation. He's like, he's like, I don't know who said it. You tell me You're like. Well, damn it. You know like. And so he's leaving. There's a lot up for interpretation throughout the just. Even in the physical way it was written, much less in the story, and then even much, much less in the ideas and themes that he's playing with to construct this narrative and so Like. I think that in some ways you could argue the judge never even existed physically in this whole book and that's why no one ever pulled the trigger on him.

Speaker 1: 1:12:32

Oh yeah, it's like it was everybody's own struggle with their own evil. Yeah, or?

Speaker 2: 1:12:36

yeah, you could. You could all the way over to like. You know that the no that was, that was a physical Eve being just the evil. Dude all the way over to know that is Satan. And as Satan is not Everywhere at once, he's in of one place, that's just.

Speaker 1: 1:12:57

That's the devil roaming the earth and the devil hung out with this gang for a period of time, I think too though, like if you wanted to go with the full analogy of like he was never there at all and maybe toad was never there at all, yeah, that he's just the manifestation of what everyone's struggling with, and, like the reason the kid couldn't pull a trigger when he had him dead rights, the reason toad vine doesn't pull a trigger when he has him to dead rights.

Speaker 2: 1:13:21

Hmm.

Speaker 1: 1:13:22

It's because you can't kill the idea of evil, right, and the only way to kill it is to, like, you know, kill it out of yourself, and even then it's never gone entirely. And so, like the idea of like, yeah, it would make sense for the kid to pull the trigger and then the bullet just passed through the judge and nothing happened. Mm-hmm, like, then it would be real, it'd be spoiled that he is not physical, mm-hmm. So, and like you know you, you could argue like there's, I Think, a strong enough case of obscurity and Objectivity. And, up to interpretation, objectivity and subjectivity is what I mean to say in that. Like you could say that anytime the judge was talking, or Anytime someone was arguing with them, or anytime someone was interacting with them or disagreeing with them, it could have been Glanton, and like the, the kid is just hearing this Profound, literate speech Because the knowledge and the information is so philosophically Challenging to him that he hears it in this form. But really it's just glands, draw and glands, and you know type of language. You know what I mean. In same with Tobin, tobin could be just simply the. You know the whispering voice of, like opportunity to do good that some of these men here, mm-hmm, all I said I. I think he was real, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:14:55

I mean I think he at least I think he was majority of the novel. He was real, yeah, yeah, I think he was really there and I'd say what I'd say? I'd say that he was both. What I would, I would say is he was both Present and also able to Be just a part of the internal struggle of a man at a point. Mm-hmm he could have been, but either, like you know he was, he could do about those.

Speaker 1: 1:15:23

I think, like someone else said this to it really too, is like what's more real now today, hitler or the idea of Hitler? Oh yeah, like Hitler as the comparison, hitler as the fear of you becoming Hitler, mm-hmm, is more real than Hitler. Hitler is dead, he's not real anymore, right, he stopped existing, mm-hmm. But the idea of a, the fear that a leader would become, in essence, as evil and as twisted as Hitler, the fear that you would allow your you know biases or you know subjective opinions of others to be twisted into straight up, like just hatred and Like despising someone for you know, simply, features that don't really ascribe to character and all that said, like I think that's like a very similar thing is like the idea of Hitler is more real now. The threat of the, the threat of Hitler, is more real now than Hitler, mm-hmm. And the same thing for the judge, right, I think at one point he goes from being a physical person to this Comparison of one's individual like self, like I mean, you know, pat, who do you compare yourself to when you think of, like the bad behavior you have, mm-hmm? Is there someone you fear becoming? Hmm, maybe not Hitler, right, cuz you know we're far away from having that kind of impact. Right like you and I aren't gonna be leading nations anytime soon, but is there someone that you could think of? You're like God. I don't want to be that person. I don't want to become that man. Mm-hmm and like that is the image of evil.

Speaker 2: 1:17:07

You see that you fear becoming mm-hmm, yeah, I think I see those. I see examples of Either people I know or people I know of you know and I like I don't want to be like that.

Speaker 1: 1:17:17

Yep, and I think that's exactly what the judge becomes for the kid.

Speaker 2: 1:17:23

We go ahead and I think that he that's why he is like in the beginning of the book, where it starts off with I think it was to win, whoever was it said like every man has a story of seeing him somewhere, mm-hmm. In the beginning that's where it's like yeah, he is just, he is the devil, he is evil that is known all over for all time and cannot be killed and is undying. And then you have the meat of the book. He's there with, he is there with them. But then in the last chapter of the book, when he reappears, it's weird because he's seen where the kid who's now his referred to as the man, because it's years down the road. Now he's not a 16 year old kid, he is a 45 year old man. I'm gonna butcher this, but it's like the. It's like and the man saw him at the other side of the bar, surrounded you, surrounded by all types of men. The judge was well dressed and around him was Gamblers, thieves, hunter, skinners he just named off as big, long list of things. Then also there's a sentence, too, of like. All of a sudden, this weird sentence of like and all the men of the of the ancient east. It's like where did that come from? Like he's looking across the bar, you know. It's like what's that supposed to mean, you know?

Speaker 1: 1:18:59

or like the I think it might. I think I honestly thought I know what you're talking about. I don't you like time. I think that was an illusion to Genghis Khan. Hmm, yeah, the men of ancient east that. I think it said something that, like it, adds one more line.

Speaker 2: 1:19:14

I think they're about like horses or Conqueror, something like that. All right, but I immediately was like oh, Genghis cuz he's playing on like here's what's physically there and here's what's actually going on in the what's existed for all of history. Yeah, just men sitting around evil.

Speaker 1: 1:19:33

Which, hmm, I'll say this, man, when I think of who could do this and pull it off and really have the voice, the stature Mm-hmm, of the judge Clancy Brown, dude voice of mr Krabs, also the main antagonist in the Highlander, do you remember?

Speaker 2: 1:19:53

the Highlander.

Speaker 1: 1:19:54

Yeah, you remember how tall he was. Yeah, he's stapled neck and how bald he was. I know he's mr Krabs.

Speaker 2: 1:20:02

McLeod, I'll find you.

Speaker 1: 1:20:05

McLeod. Like he's so terrifying, bro, mm-hmm, and I Still think he like when you see images of him today Mm-hmm, just make him bald, bro, that's Give him some red contacts.

Speaker 2: 1:20:18

Yeah, that to me is Without a doubt the judge, cuz he also has this like ability to be like in, like a moth to flame, like he's like there's, there's good looking.

Speaker 1: 1:20:33

I think the eyes, I think it's eyes, I think it's eyes that are almost like rolling you in like you can tell his eyes are Like his eyes with the smile seem like they're trying to reel you in Yep. I've also heard people say Um, dave, but Tista. But I just don't think Dave put Tista. He's big, he's bald and he's got a deep voice, you like evil, do Give me puppies.

Speaker 2: 1:21:05

I'll say.

Speaker 1: 1:21:06

I just think. I think the issue is that I've seen Dave, but Tista and kind of what I think you're alluding to Is like I've seen him be, he's, he's, he's been too much of a comedic relief dumb guy, which is ironic because I'm saying mr Krabs could be the judge but I just don't think I've seen Dave put Tista have that Presence of command Onscreen right. I think he got close to it in Blade Runner where, like, when Ryan Gosling Goes to confront him, mm-hmm, and it's revealed, like you realize pretty quickly, like this guy is not a human, this guy is an Android, mm-hmm, and Dave, but Tista's like Cold gentleness in this very dangerous environment, where, like, he could break Ryan Gosling in half, like I think that is the closest I've seen him get to that kind of presence of command. Yeah, we're like you're, you're kind of afraid of him, you're afraid he's about to explode and I Don't know, I'd be willing to like, definitely like give it a shot, you know, especially like with you know, I know, I know Clancy Brown's getting old, but I still think he could do it because, like the judge doesn't need to be athletic, like there's no scene where we see the judge like Leaping from rock to rock, right you know, I mean yeah and dude, because he, after he was a captain Hadley and Shawshank, yeah, I mean bad man, that man, he's so evil, he makes you hate him so much.

Speaker 2: 1:22:34

So you, because there is like the problem of being like typecast I do think of like other people too like um, I've wanted a guy pops into my mind. I don't know if he could do it now, but at once he's an old man. Mm-hmm older with like Jason Segal.

Speaker 1: 1:22:52

No way, dude. But like oh, jason Segal, jason Segal, no dude, Jason Segal, he's tall, he's huge and he's a good actor, so like that he's got a scary smile, sometimes kind of like the the Brian Cranston thing.

Speaker 2: 1:23:07

We weren't ready for Malcolm in the Middles, dad in the underwear thing coming Walter. Walter one, you're like holy my god, like I respect him so much. Yeah, like I could see like someone like that, just like cuz. Yeah, I think that you know, even like Brian Cranston typecast. Now if you put him as the judge, people might be kind of like oh, of course you did that, you tried to do it again, but he's just not big enough, you know right just not Big enough of a guy, yeah you gotta be ominous, yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:23:38

There's one more and I'm trying to find the cast for it. I think actually he was. I think he was alluded to being the zodiac killer and the zodiac film John Carol Lynch. So look him up real quick, because most people are known by his, his name, but John Carol Lynch I've seen, as a lot of people said, oh, balled him up, give him the red contacts. He's a tall guy. He's got the soft but demanding voice. What do you think? Did you see him? I see him now. I think I think he could do it and it would be absolutely like that's Satan, like I don't think any part of his, of like him being the judge, could be believed to be Just a man Like he. Because I don't know if you have you seen him in a horror movie? Have you seen him where he's a Predator? He's, he's so scary when he is in a scary role. Dude, I see a picture of him right here on American Horror Story looks he looks terrifying.

Speaker 2: 1:24:42

I think you could do it. I think he could. But the Clancy Brown, though, that's the judge. I'm glad you believe it. No, it's right there, like that's him. They got to get him right now. Yeah, dude, especially with the movie and production like lock that guy in that, because that is so it.

Speaker 1: 1:25:04

I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being one of the scars guard brothers, or you know, I think he's a good guy, it ends up being one of the scars guard brothers, or you know the dad, because they all, they all love to be scary guys. But I really hope they do Clancy Brown justice and let him have another shot at being absolute evil incarnate. Before we move down, though, I wanted to, because I just feel like some people probably don't get you know, if they're listening to this, they don't get the the prominence of the judge, mm-hmm, and I know I just shared a link with you Send you in case there's any of the quotes there. But if you have another quote from the judge that you really like, I want to give you the opportunity, kind of like Voice it here, but there's, there's this one I have because it's Like I know we've mentioned how evil he is, but there's things he says, says, that are so enrapturing and philosophy and thought, to make a man stop and listen and agree and the way he posits it is like I think very dangerous and tempting to like, want to listen more. And so there's this quote. This is from the judge. He says that man who sets himself the task of singling out the thread of order from the tapestry Will, by the decision alone, have taken charge of the world, and it is only by such taking charge that he will affect a way to dictate the terms of his own fate. And so to me he's just like saying, like the just the act of trying to find your thread amongst this tapestry that is the world and find it and find where it's going, where has it already been weaved, is enough, just to seek it out, is enough to then control the world, control the entire tapestry and decide the fate of it. And I think, like we could, we could argue that, you could argue that with anybody. But, dude, the way he delivers it, the writing, the prose, is so powerful in its philosophy and so tempting. Like that is a challenge. Like he's he's saying this to a group of killers that don't fit into society, and like he's he's saying this into them. I guarantee every single one of them felt challenged to find his thread and try to, just like, take control of the world and take control of his fate. And it's just one of those things where, like, that is the language of a leader, and that is the language of a leader who's who could very well lead these people into a like a bad, a bad business, right, but like that language is the language of like people who lead other people and like that is dangerous. And I think that's why, like I want people to understand, like that quote to me summizes why the judge is seen by Tobin, while why the priest can't see him for objectively evil, you know, I mean cause he sees this other side of him too. Oh yeah, so I don't know, is there a quote that you have that you really like and that you feel like wraps him up?

Speaker 2: 1:28:12

I think so, but I might close. It's the last line of the book Sure and maybe we close with it.

Speaker 1: 1:28:19

Is a quote from him or is a quote about him?

Speaker 2: 1:28:22

It's a quote a quote about him. I quote from him. But the I don't know if on your stuff, where you getting into the I don't care if you take my thunder, but I can see we getting into the war and the analogy of the sports with it.

Speaker 1: 1:28:35

Well, I think you should play into that too, you know, and speak to it, because I know that was something you spoke on in the past and I think I thought you worded it really well. Well, it's just funny, because that was the thing that I think when you said that you hadn't read this book. No, it was a thing that made me think, like, bro, you need to read this book.

Speaker 2: 1:28:53

Just in case I him him. No, the. But I've, for a long time now I've said I'll back up. I've become pessimistic about sports in general for a lot of reasons that I won't go into because we're already running on this thing. But the. I think that all sports are just an exercise in warfare. That's what it is. It is man versus man, it is domination, it is. It is. It is you subjecting your power over somebody else and proving that you are better than them at it. And you are, you are, you are dominating them in this, whatever arena it is, and you are saying you, you are lesser, I am greater. That's what sports is. That's what it is. I don't care if you're playing four square or if you're playing the Super Bowl. That's what sports is. Chess, you know exactly, have the nerds get in on it too. You know freaking on the chess game. So it's like the um. And the reason I say that is because I see in modern day where, like, what's the fine, lots of sports, and like all the way from trophy culture over to like being worried about CTE hey, you should be worried about CTE if you're five year olds playing tackle football, but also if you want to get in the arena and you want to worry about CTE. I think that sports is akin to being a scalp hunter in a, very in a, it's, there's a, there's a in a moral space. There's a huge jump between the two. But in a, in a, in a space of, what are you actually doing? You're, you're subjugating somebody else under your dominance and in a culture we now live in where we say all things are equal, all things need to be positive, all things need to be upheld, all things need to have a platform, all things need to, um, uh, be accepted. There's, sports is a place where, like that dies. That that has to. Sports has to die If you want those things to get risen up. But those things must die if you want sports to be sports. Exactly, cause, cause, it's, it's just arm wrestling match, who's better and who's stronger, and there's no like oh, you got me this time.

Speaker 1: 1:31:19

No, it's like you are mine now I think I think your allusion to all sports resembling essentially the ethos of a scalp of scalp excuse me, I'm scalping your enemy. Dude. I think that has been the best sports I've ever played. And I think like the, the, the competitive nature of to me, the competitive nature of like flag football. I get like tackles fun cause you get to tackle right. But there is something about ripping those flags off and seeing them glisten in the sun and and like the feeling of when it like soars into the air after you eat it and you just see it flitter down and you can see everyone like slowing to a pace. Also, with the same, I think of like capture the flag. Like capture the flag to me is one of the most primitive things. Oh yeah, that is just like it has every aspect of war and every aspect of a sport, because it's a team versus a team, there's a defense, there's an offense and when you lose it is paraded. Yeah, it is like to me. Like I love capture the flag. It is like such I. I don't like it with certain people because I know I will hurt their feelings. Oh yeah, and I know I will get real, I'll turn into big war guy.

Speaker 2: 1:32:34

They wouldn't have lasted in Mexico in 1840.

Speaker 1: 1:32:38

I don't even mean that. I just mean like I'll get so. I'll just get so competitive and so like aggressive about it that I don't like to play with a lot of people. But there's some people who are like like high school boys, capture the flag, let's go, but like it's like something about so so it's like.

Speaker 2: 1:32:53

It's like a rush of drugs when you carry that flag across the liner into the base. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1: 1:32:59

And you know, and to quote the judge, this is, you know, a quote from the book Men are born for games, nothing else. And it, in war is contained all games, and all games are practiced for war, and it's like in that, like I like. That's why when you said this and you went on this kind of like soapbox a couple of months ago, I was like dude, not that you're a Satan, but like he's saying the same thing. You know all that said. Let's, let's take a moment to kind of let people reflect on this before we start breaking down key points of themes and really get into full spoilers of the book. Let's, let's break this thing into a part two, because this is good enough, I think, for people to at least decide heck man, I want to listen to this book. It's a 13 hour book. If you've listened to this podcast, you know you're sponsored by audible. Sign up, get your first month free and use that first month freeze credit to get blood meridian and buckle up for a ride and then come back after that, you know, because what, how long did it take you to listen to a pet 13 hour book?

Speaker 2: 1:34:13

About a week yeah, so it'll take somebody, you know, a couple of days to a couple of weeks, depending on your, your schedule, you know. But yeah, you can, you can knock it out pretty fast at 13 hour for sure. And I think that also, while we've talked about what happens in the book, we haven't really spoiled the book. No, we've told you some plot points, but like you're going to forget it, all Our words are nothing compared to that of the authors Cormac McCartney and the world you're going to get sucked into.

Speaker 1: 1:34:43

Yeah, well, uh, all right. Yeah, let's do that. Let's break it into two parts. We'll leave it here for those who are hooked and now want to read this story. Those who enjoyed reviewing it with us because they've already gone through the journey of the book, look forward to part two, but until next time.