The Mick & Pat Show - The Ripple Effect of Political Violence

0:01 Welcome to the Mick and Pat show. I'm Mick and I'm Pat and we are taking a brief hiatus this week just from our East of Eden dog ear dialogues. We'll be doing the part four next week because, as everyone knows, some pretty big things just happened in the well, just in America and kind of ringing out across the world, and we just wanted to kind of take a moment to speak to it and just talk about the facts. And then you know a little bit of our opinions of you know how could this have happened and you know what the fallout might have been if Trump had been assassinated.

0:47 So, context-wise, if you've been living on a rock, trump was delivering a speech in Pennsylvania just the day before the RNC Republican National Convention and he was just doing a speech on a stage outside when someone was on the roof of a building nearby and started firing rounds, dodged literally death by less than a centimeter um and less than like five tenths of a second or something like that Um and so all that said um, pretty crazy, just because this is the first time this has happened.

1:37 Uh, for you know my lifetime, our lifetime and a lot of people in our generation and I think a lot of people just thought that there's been talks around, people have been saying, like, take Trump out, or something like that, and I think a lot of people just didn't really understand that we could still see something like this happen in today's day and age, and so the gravity of it is kind of starting to, I think, sink in with a lot of people and really what it kind of means going forward for politics in our nation. You know there's been a lot of calls on both sides, thankfully, to really quench the virtue vitriol, uh, between the parties, um, and for everyone to behave and act more presidentially, um, and to kind of uh stop the campaigns that uh paint one another, as you know, less than human or something like that, which has been a lot of subject of the conversation.

2:43 You know, I know Biden had a statement about how, you know his campaign was going to put Trump in the crosshairs and put a bullseye on him, and that is in no way shape or form, I think, like credence to a plan from the deep, deep state to assassinate Trump or anything like that. I think it is just purely like, um, like hot, aggressive, uh, political talk for putting the pressure on and trying to make the other candidate look bad and put the pressure on them for, uh, actions and things like that and policy and so biting campaign.

3:25 A lot of people might not know this, but they've totally taken off all ads, uh, that they were running against Trump, just to reframe them and be aware of, like, the current circumstances and kind of take a moment to breathe and recognize like this is a bad thing, um, it was an unacceptable thing to happen in our nation and that we got to take a new course going forward. So, all that said, I know I've been doing a lot of digging. I've been part of the intelligence channels, tapping into those that I got connections in, just to try to get as much information as I can and sift through all the speculation to make sure I'm only looking at you know the facts of what happened.

4:09 I don't know about you, pat, I don't know how much like research you've been doing over the past couple of days, but I think, if anything, I just hope that listeners know they can hear us talk about it from like a pretty like objective point of view of just like what happened and, uh, you know it's not going to be. This is not in any way shape or form, going to be, uh, a podcast, painting, you know, uh, the Democrat party or the liberals or the conservatives or Republicans, uh in a bad light. This is just simply to talk about like the facts of the assassination, what happened, and then kind of like speculation of like what would have our country been the next morning if Trump had been killed.

4:52 You know what I mean, because I think there's been a lot of people talking about that too. So, yeah, I kind of want to give you an opportunity to open up here too, pat, yeah, cause I think there's like there's two big main things in this conversation, which is like the. The big view that you're speaking to is one like the, the general state of many uh people here who you know what is the political climate? You know, what is the people seeing, other people's enemies, um and the uh and and, as we've seen from reactions on on both sides around the, you know, some people maybe attributing, like you know, trump survival to like an act of god, and other like others on the other side maybe like like actively posting that they're upset that the guy missed yeah um and so like.

5:43 There's a conversation to be had around like just the climate, political climate, where's people's minds at, where do they value human life? Um, and have general respect, human decency, these things. And then the other conversation is like the just straight breakdown of like, in those you know basically what was about you know 10 minutes of time, what happened, how did it happen, who, who did what, how did. Where were their failures in security, where were their failures in um to act, or where was there also, uh, successes in those? You know. So, in like a like you know, kind of a breakdown of the moment, of what happened there.

6:28 And I think that, like you know, it's kind of. It's kind of two different conversations that we can have kind of throughout the same time, but the, because there is like a heaviness to the situation as well, as then there's also just like the kind of the, the brass facts and of, okay, like gonna just speak to this in some type, some cases. We'll just speak to this, as you know, objectively. Here's what happened, here's what we saw, here's what we think you know about the actual event. You know, because it is kind of there's there's two different things going on here that that need to be addressed yeah. So, um, let's just kind of start out with, uh you know what.

7:10 What occurred so, um, it was on saturday, um, which was july 13th, um, and uh, trump was given the speech in Pennsylvania, um, and an opening speech just to kind of uh get his supporters, uh you know, excited in about the RNC convention stuff, and uh, rumor had it that at that speech he was going to announce who his VP pick was going to be, which he later announced today, on July 15th. But while he was in the midst of speaking, there started being a couple cracks of gunfire or pops.

7:58 A lot of people thought at first it might have been fireworks and then we can see, you know, Trump put his hand up to his ear and then ducked down, um, and that, uh, as seen in some of the photographs posted by um photographers that were there, was the rounds, just like barely missing Trump Um, and unfortunately, some of those rounds uh did strike, uh, some of the rounds did strike some of the people there to see the speech, taking the life of one man who moved to protect his wife and daughter when the shots started and he did lose his life.

8:40 His name was Corey. I can't remember his last name, but he was a firefighter, true red-blooded American, and died protecting his family. So it wasn't without tragedy and a couple of other people two others were critically wounded. They're still in critical condition from what I understand. But Trump was clipped in the ear. He went down, secret Service rushed the stage and surrounded him and there's a clear, different percussion sound from the Secret Service snipers who were on the roofs behind Trump. That returned fire.

9:27 Trump that returned fire and I think it was just one shot of return fire which neutralized the assailant and after that secret service cleared that shooter was down and got Trump back up, which, infamously now is kind of being heard because it's kind of like funny or silly. But he's saying wait, let me get my shoes. Let me get my shoes Because apparently, from what I've read, he was wearing some very good luck shoes from his grandfather. It was like shoes his grandfather wore and he's been wearing them on the campaign trail, which is definitely almost like a classic adrenaline response right Of like, certain things become a priority even in the midst of like chaos where, like you know, your adrenaline dump response might not be helping you think clearly.

10:16 So he's trying to grab his shoes and then, as they're moving them off. He says wait, and we can hear all this because he's mic'd up still when they're trying to move them off. And he says wait, says wait, and we can hear all this cause he's mic'd up still when they're trying to move them off. And he says wait, wait, wait, turns and pumps a fist up in the air with blood across his face, which is now this like infamous photo that is just going around, um, and I I gotta say you know it's a very, it's a very American photo. It's a photo of a strong presidential candidate, uh, standing up and, you know, encouraging his supporters to essentially stand their ground and fight. Uh, you know, um, to not not be, uh, swayed by this.

10:58 You know, active evil and uh, regardless of your politics, like that image, I think, is going to be just as famous as the image of, you know, jfk's assassination or like Reagan, after he was shot, you know, and it's going to go down in textbooks and it is an image that, again, like, I really think, regardless of political opinion, like you can look at it and be like, well, that is truly like the spirit that we want uh displayed in America, like, if you take shots at us, like we will stand strongly and put our fists in the air. Um, and so, uh, that's kind of what occurred.

11:39 Uh, he was arrested off stage, um, and taken to uh get medically checked where it was, you know, reported that he had taken around through the top of his ear. The assailant was using a AR style rifle, as what they say they haven't released, like if it is an actual AR 15 or whatever, but using two, two, three, which, if you ask anyone who's familiar with firearms and munitions, the 223 round is like the most common intermediate rifle round in america. It's what's used in the, you know, majority of ar platforms. And that round does some pretty quirky stuff when it goes into a human body and like people have been shot, you know, and said like round wind in their shoulder, came out the back of, you know, their neck, because it can zip and curve off of bone quite a bit, because it is a small bullet at moving at high speed that can really ricochet and do funny things.

12:38 And a lot of people have hypothesized, while rebuilding the angles, that the round might have went through his ear and actually rolled across the back of his head and that's why the photo was able to capture it because it was moving slower after essentially changing course off of the back of his head, and if it was a higher caliber round with a lot more weight behind it, it probably wouldn't have changed course. It probably would have gone through his ear and just taken out a side of his head, um, and so it's also pretty crazy when they review the footage, he literally turns his head at the moment, yeah, like you know, like I said, five tenths of a second before the first shot comes through, and that turning of his head definitely saved his life.

13:32 Now to some of the other facts that we've gotten about the shooter and all that. The shooter I'm not going to say his name, I don't like to give credit to anything about those people or promote their names or anything like that, but he was 20 years old, to anything about those people or promote their names or anything like that, um, but he did. Um, he was 20 years old. He has a weird history. Uh, doesn't seem to have any history of crimes or anything like that. No criminal charges previously. Um, he was reported to have been heavily bullied in school uh by uh former classmates of his, his that that were interviewed. He at one point was um donating to the democratic party and uh, then, in 2022, registered as a republican and, uh, you know, not saying that any of this validates like who he was or his decisions, right, like you can't throw the baby out with the bath water and generalize, right, I'm just speaking on like his history that we know that's been released so far, um, and like none of his family had any reason to believe he was going to take an action like this.

14:34 Um, it's kind of like the classic uh, you know, lone wolf shooter. Um, that we've heard before. Right is like there wasn't a lot of warning signs, just a troubled individual. Um. What is interesting, though, is that uh secret service had identified the building that he climbed on top of as a security vulnerability, and they still didn't have uh operators on top of that building to secure it or any Secret Service individuals on the ground near the building to secure it. And about three to four minutes before the shooter took his first shots, he was seen by people outside of the rally scaling a ladder to get on the building with his rifle, and people are literally recording it on their phones saying there's a man with a rifle climbing on this building.

15:31 Tell the police and they go and tell the police and apparently now a report has come out. At first it was that the police didn't report anything, they didn't take it seriously, but it seems now reports come out officially that the police did radio and inform Secret Service. Hey, we have reports of a man with a rifle climbing on this building which aligns with what we see in the rally. If we watch the footage from multiple angles, we can see that these two Secret Service snipers behind Trump, to his right technically, uh, to his right technically, um, they are aware and identifying something which is the shooter on the other, on the other roof, and we can see that they are looking through their optics on, uh, they they're working with seriously like high end precision rifles, bolt action rifles, um, and a lot of people have been, you know, reviewing the optics they had.

16:23 They might be, you know, 40x optics for some pretty precise long range shots. And as they're looking, we can see them taking their eyes off the optic and seeing, like, how close the shooter is and trying to gauge, because those optics are probably zeroed at a range well beyond 100 yards, range well beyond 100 yards and the shooter was within 140 yards of trump, which, if you're not familiar, again, with ballistics and rifles, and, uh, you know how hard a shot might be 140 yards is like easy, it's easy, peasy. It's what, like you know, like elementary schoolers can do with 22s. Yeah, um, as if with a little bit of practice, let alone something with more power behind it, um, and like majority of hunters, I would argue, most of the time, are taking shots at deer, successfully beyond that range.

17:13 Um and so, for anyone who's not familiar, like this was an easy shot. Yeah, this was a shot that was well within, like, uh, what should have been a secure perimeter was a shot that was well within, like, uh, what should have been a secure perimeter. And, uh, when we see the secret service men, um, the snipers on the roof trying to dope their scopes and adjust for such a close target, uh, everyone was wondering why didn't they shoot sooner? Now, I don't have any official report out here or facts with that, but it does seem like there is some people who have spoken anonymously online that they were trying to get permission to take the shot and permission was being held up.

17:56 Now, I'm not saying someone said denied it, right, because it could be like, hey, we see a man with a rifle. It looks like he's trying to take position to fire on the you know the presidential candidate permission to fire and it could be someone like hold on, we need to verify, hold on, we need to get verification if you're aiming at the right thing. All of that, honestly to say, like if the threat had been taken serious initially, when multiple eyewitnesses I mean dozens of people were telling the police what was going on. This should have been handled well before that guy got any shots off and, unfortunately, due to someone or multiple people in that chain of command, a man lost his life, two people critically injured.

18:40 Presidential candidate Trump was injured, injured. Presidential candidate trump was injured and, uh, you know, we were put in a pretty, uh, tense situation politically, uh, as a nation, um, and so there's a lot of quarterbacking going on right now, right, and the secret service is under some serious scrutiny for, uh, you know why certain things weren't done and extra precautions taken, um, um, but those are like the brief, high level facts of the shooting what occurred, um, and the distances. So, and if you want to see any of those images or anything like that, they're very much like a lot of great resources online to see it mapped out from like a satellite imagery with uh lines, drawing distance and point of views.

19:21 So definitely check those out if you're more curious about that stuff and into firearms ballistics like we are. It's uh, it's pretty interesting. But uh, yeah, pat, what anything I missed. Anything else you want to fill in there? no, I think. I mean, I think that covers kind of the yeah, the general. You know what happened and what went on and you know, and I was talking to some people about this in the last couple days and lots of people's like the main things people say is I've heard like how did a guy possibly get this close? And like why didn't they you get taken out sooner. And I think, like you know, my like opinion conjecture on is a couple things is like, first of all, from the security standpoint, like the um, and I do think there were like misses and failures, but at the same time there there's like trump isn't the president of the united states, meaning he does not get the same amount of security and protection, that that the whoever's holds that title gets an immense amount of you, of security around them.

20:27 Whatever, I'm sure I don't know their procedures, but if I was them I'm sure they've got thermal drones up. They've got probably five times more personnel with them. The planning ahead of time, it's all. You're protecting the leader of the free world. So it's like do you have this? Like um, you have a much more robust security, um security apparatus. That is also um that that somebody who's running for president doesn't have, as well as the fact that you know Trump was not technically the official candidate of the um of the Republican party yet until the day after or until that evening, right Until it was declared at the at the convention.

21:14 And so, um, at that point, usually guys get more security at that point as the race goes forward. Now, being a former president, he will always have a security detail. That's just a part of the gig. Once you've been the president, you get security, and so with that also, lots of this Secret Service is coordinating with local law enforcement in these places too. So you have, you know, know whoever local cops you have. You have sheriffs, deputies, sheriffs, um you have. Then you have local swat you also have. You do have federal swat units, fbi, other people around, and so you have a bunch of different groups all coordinating at one time.

22:00 And so you have I think it's very easy for, in a situation like this, for confusion and, you know, uh, communication breakdown to happen. You know, I mean the. It's almost even like you know, the movie shooter, right, yeah, like I think of the michael pena character in the beginning of that. He's just like a street cop, kind of like in this, like he's like, you know he can't, he can't actually do anything about what's going on at the very beginning of that movie, you know, and the way he runs into the shooter trying to figure out what's going on, like very much. And you have very much a situation like this here where you have, you know, different groups trying to figure out who's doing what, who's who, what's going on. And then you know the the now, with that being said, obviously this guy got super close and it was reported and it, you know, could have, should have been taken care of much faster.

22:54 But then another question to have is, which I don't know, is what is within their rights to take the first shot yeah you know, like, like, because this is small town, pennsylvania, this was not on the same property that they were on for like, and yes, this is a leader in America, someone joined for president. They have to be protected, but like, as stringent as like the rules of engagement, or even towards the end of Iraq, afghanistan, where even those soldiers fighting a war couldn't shoot at somebody until they were being shot at. You know, like that's how strict it was at certain times. So now you take it to a home, now, on home soil. What is?

23:34 How do you approach and engage these things where you know when you have and and clearly, these, these snipers, and from the beginning I was like these guys saw that guy. And then I know they saw that guy the whole time. You know, like the two snipers who were on him, because also, how fast they took him out. If they didn't know where he was, they couldn't take him out that fast. They were aiming in his direction. You know, probably like 15 seconds before the first shots are heard in any of the video recordings are heard. Yeah, in any of the video recordings and you know there is like a un, um uncorroborated report of the guy who did take the shot saying that he was requesting for permission, wasn't getting it, like you were saying a second ago, and so you know those specific this I think you know.

24:18 In this situation, the specific individuals grunts, boots on the ground are not to blame as much as the higher-ups making the calls. And also there is onus, I think, on the people. Like I don't know, if I was just a cop walking by and I got a report of a guy on a roof, I'd be hopping on that roof myself if no one was coming over there. Now, that's also, once again we're armchair quarterbacking this thing. What would I actually do, I don't know. Once again, we're armchair quarterback in this thing. What would I actually do? I don't know. But you know, it's like there was, there was plenty of time for this guy to get um, even someone to go, and, you know, go to where he was on that roof and see what's going on. Um, but the other piece of this too, being like I think that we have a false sense of security in general around, like I don't think that it's as hard as we think it is to get to somebody, even with a huge security detail yeah and that's if you talk to secret service agents or hear them talk about, like, the stress they're under and they they basically say, if you're willing to, their biggest fear is the fact that if somebody's willing to die, they cannot ultimately protect their the person that they're protecting.

25:26 Like they can do the best they can. But if someone's willing to die over it, like there's just only so much they can do, right in that, uh, in in that, because you, you can't account for every single thing. And or if you have someone who's basically on a suicide mission, it's just a, it's a different animal of trying to secure and figure out how to how to approach that. And so I think that you know the. I just yeah, I think it's not as hard as we think to get for someone to get close in a situation like this. Also, there was failures here. There's things that are going to be addressed. There's people who are going to, you know, get roasted for this.

26:06 The you know trump was almost, very much almost, killed, and then there was other people who there was another person killed and the other two who knows if they're going to make it through their surgeries and stuff they're going through, and so, um, the there's uh put tons of different angles to come at this, but one part of it I think you know. I think I've seen a lot of like, even the, the uh secret service guys who let him stand up and put his fist in the air, getting a lot of flack for like how could you allow that faster right not moving off faster? and like and like a part of me, from a security standpoint, agrees with that, being like, yeah, like, get him out.

26:48 Also that during this time they were, they were checking his body, see what's going on. You got to make sure he's not hit. They don't know what's going on and, like they did, they dove on him pretty dang fast yeah, no, I think I think the response of the secret service men and women uh going up to stage as well as, like their um, what is? Uh, crt units responding, um, I think they responded really well because it was clear, like there was no hesitation to put their lives on the line to take a bullet for them. You know what I mean. Like I don't, I don't think anyone could have acted faster and got on that like I don't care who you are on the keyboard right, like I don't think you're gonna respond faster than they did, because if you look at the footage, most of the crowd didn't even start ducking down right before secret service people were on stage, um, and covering trump, and something like this hasn't happened since 1981 yeah, so like the fact is like the complacency could totally be there too, for like not that like these people train super hard and do other stuff, but like just the fact that, like you know, it hasn't like now going forward, security of these things is going to be insane yeah, I think you know and like, and also the you know it's gonna and they're they're gonna re-up on all their stuff, because, yeah, it hasn't been since 1981, when reagan was shot, that that there was, um, you know something, this level on a presidential candidate or president, and so I think them allowing him to put his fist in the air.

28:24 Also, though, it was from a security standpoint, while not good because, the critique being listen, they did get to confirm the shooter's down, but at the same time time, you don't know if there's two, three, four, five people involved in this and if all the threats are actually done. So it was risky to let him do this and at the same time, though, like like you said earlier, like there's something about like what do people want to see in a president or in American? is like standing back up with their fist in the air and like this, uh, you know, like, was Trump taking a photo op opportunity? I'd say, yeah, he probably was. And also, at the same time, like in the moment, I think he was also like genuine in his like he's pissed, he just been shot.

29:13 He's like you know, he's, he's, he was justified in his like he's pissed, he just been shot. He's like you know, he's, he's. He was justified in his like kind of uh, in his behavior, in his primal, yeah, like behavior to do that yeah, I a couple things just to add in here as well. Um, and clarify, uh, the victim who lost his life was cory comparator. Um, there is a gofundme for him as well as for the other victims online. It's verified GoFundMe. Make sure you do your research and don't get scammed. But if you want to support his family and the families of those who are injured, definitely go check that out. He, by all means, from what we understand, was a very um, selfless, uh, red-blooded American who loved his family, and he literally gave his life covering his wife and daughter.

30:02 So, um, doesn't get pretty much more good than that, you know, um, it was pretty high call and he rose to it. Uh, and it's a tragedy that you know his life was lost. Additionally, just to like make sure this is clear and hammered, both Biden and Trump, you know, made calls for peace and unity across the nation. There is no side of this where either of these candidates or even RFK Jr, of course, running independent, no one is saying and blaming one side or the other. Right now, they're saying hey, we got to have peace, we got to have unity.

30:42 Now for the rest of the parties and the members of those parties, everyone is running their mouth online and pointing fingers and it's the blame game for sure, but the leaders of those parties we see are acting in very presidential manners to request that cooler heads prevail. Additionally, president Joe Biden did order a review of federal security specifically for Trump, as well as the security measures for the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee. So there is a reaction of like, oh, we have to take this serious. We have to review where things currently stand and I know it was kind of politically charged topic where RFK Jr was being denied secret service protection topic where rfk jr was being denied secret service, uh, protection.

31:38 Um, as well, as there was a time where trump might have not had it because of the criminal charges that he was facing. Um, the case that was overseeing those criminal charges has been dropped in light of this, in order to make sure there's nothing preventing him from securing a security detail federally, and both RFK Jr and President Trump have been issued higher level security from Secret Service. It's like it's no longer topic of conversation or debate, like it's been announced that they're getting it and they're getting a higher level of security. So again, just want to make sure people know like there are there are the leaders here are trying to do what they can to make sure that cooler heads, um and, uh, you know, safety are the highest priority.

32:26 Um, there is no, uh, currently finger pointing and blame game happening at that level and withholding of safety by anyone, right as well as, like, no one's made any calls for retaliation when it comes to, like, party leaders. Now, a lot of people are being dumb online. A lot of people are using violent language. There are people on the right saying we have to take the fight back to them. That is insane. On the right saying we have to take the fight back to them. That is insane. I can't imagine like, where your head can be and think like this is an us versus them thing. You know what I mean. There's also people on the left who are straight up flipping out, crying because the shooter missed and losing their mind and saying that it should have happened.

33:11 Um, it's a very nasty thing and people are going to be awful people, regardless of what their leaders that they subscribe to say and do. So we got to be sure that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and generalize here with left or right and I think I speak for both of us here when we say, like we encourage people to be, you know, more analytical and cooler and assessing this and try to leave as much emotion out of it as possible. But with that as well, it is interesting, like when reviewing shooters motives.

33:52 So they did find the ATF, which you know. The ATF's full acronym is alcohol, tobacco sorry, administration of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives. But we just kind of usually chop off the explosives part. They are involved in this because explosive material was found in the assailant's vehicle. And I think it's maybe his house too. Yeah, and his house as well. Yeah, so there is a lot of speculation that like, uh, from what you know, was reported, it was reported that he was acting shifty and, you know, behaving oddly, avoiding, uh, the metal detectors at the rally, um, and that was reported to police and then it was, you know, before he left the area to be entered into the rally and went up the ladder on that other building, um, the police were looking for him.

34:41 Um, there isn't a clear political motive of anything they've found uh, so far. Um, and the concern is that, you know, this is what we usually see with like trying to gain the attention that we see from, like, other mass shooters and such this mentality. And the fear is that like this is an individual whose whole motive was for recognition, not necessarily a political motivated, but like desiring to be famous, you know, for the act itself. And a lot of people are drawing similarities to the individual who tried to shoot Ray Well, he who tried to assassinate Reagan, because his motive was to impress the actress Jodie Foster.

35:30 Like his literal, his whole motive was like it would impress Jodie Foster if I killed the president, which you know is insanelyodie Foster. Like his literal, his whole motive was like it would impress Jodie Foster if I killed the president, uh, which you know is insanely psychotic. But, uh, we're probably looking at someone with a similar motive here, right, in regards to like wanting to be famous, uh, for doing an awful thing, um, rather than it being like, oh, I think he's just a bad politician or something like that, or, oh, I'm saving America, anything like that, right, and the reason that's a concern is because usually acts like these light a candle under similar perpetrators, right, who kind of use this as the motivation to carry out further acts, and you can't, really it's very hard to curb that behavior and diffuse it, because when it's political, you can have political leaders speak to their do to dissuade them, because they've usually already, um, subscribe to a moralistic view that it doesn't matter who I hurt, uh, because no one cares about me and all that matters is that I get as popular or famous or my name's in as many headlines or textbooks as possible.

36:46 Um, and so that's kind of the big concern now, and I've been like going through articles. You know where there's like, um, you know people from various fields of social sciences and security, uh, just saying like we should be on, uh, heightened alertness. Um, not on edge, I don't want to say on edge, cause that encourages paranoia but we should be on heightened alertness for further acts of violence at these kinds of events, because this is kind of how you bring the wood, the rats, out of the wood, you know. And so, um, all that said, uh, I think that, um, you know it, as more comes out, like, people are wondering, like, was he planning, you know, as a like this, this is an individual that seemed to be a planning to like, sacrifice themselves for what they believed, because it seemed like, if he wasn't able to get a clear shot, that he was going to use his vehicle as an explosive device to try to take out the president and as many other people.

37:50 So, um, again, you know, we're not, we're not probably looking at something that's even related to politics as much as, uh, an individual who, uh was, um, mentally and psychologically broken and justifying, no matter who they hurt, as long as it got them famous, right, um, so a lot of that's uh kind of, you know, being discussed across the social science experts right now and trying to figure out, like, really you know what the intentions and motivations were. But that seems to be kind of the latest road. Um, and with that too it's funny, because people always want to take like they want to take seemingly facts about people and then immediately be able to lump them into a different group and then say cc c is that person so like, for instance, you know, it's like um the, the fact that he donated to um.

38:51 You know, donated to uh I think it was Back the Blue or something like that, not Back the Blue, act Blue he donated to $15 to a Democratic organization. It was during Biden's inauguration day, but people want to grab onto that and say, see he's this side. Yeah, and then also he was registered Republican. And everyone's back. See, he's a gun-toned Republican. I'll tell you, I have friends who are registered Republicans who always vote Democrat. Yeah, no, kidding right. But here's why they strategically register Republican in order to be able to vote in Republican primaries.

39:35 Oh sure In order to disrupt them, like this time around, they were voting for Nikki Haley to try to get Trump done because they wanted somebody who they thought would definitely lose against Biden. So there's like there are people who, so you don't know, we don't know what the guy's intent was with any of this one way or the other, with any of it, but what I think was one thing that is interesting is you know what the guy's intent was with any of this, one way or the other, with any of it, but what I think was it? One thing that is interesting is you know this guy was 17 years old when biden took office in 2021, and so he, you know, went from. He's never voted for president, right. So he goes to from being a 17 year old high school kid to now 20 year old, who, like his whole quote unquote, adult life was inside of, and we'll put 2020 the year 2020.

40:21 This is also the 16 year old, it's 2020. Just america is, you know, at one of its most volatile points it's ever been in highly divisive, um, high tons of issues with. You know, race tensions or racial tensions are high. The election that year was, you know, super politically charged. Politically charged climate, politically charged climate around Also, just whether you're supposed to wear a mask or not, whatever, like, everything was like. This is this guy's existence as an adult has just always been inside of this pressure cooker, and so who knows all the like, all the whatever forums or chats he's on, or the, or the social media feeds he gets, and the, the outside influences of the world that that like formed his brain over the last four years.

41:08 But, like you know, I think that you could also be said this guy's probably a very much a product of, you know, the loud, politically charged climate, whereas you could have other people who've, if you're in your 50s, you've been through a lot more. You, you remember, you know times in america that were seemingly just as divided or charged or difficult and things like that too. And so his perspective, seriously lacking perspective and stuff as well as like it appears that he was, you know, a loner, a bullied kid in high school. Like you do also have some of the classic makings of, like, your active shooter type. You know, like uh, persona and like yeah and who, like the person who is gonna whether, whether he leaned left or leaned right, he was probably gonna go try to hurt somebody.

41:57 Yep, you know it, just in the way that you, we, when you review these things backwards, you do see the makings of like, oh, that you know, yeah, you know less surprising yeah, it was pretty humbling to see. I mean humbling might not be the right word, but it definitely made me reflect on how am I actively treating those that might be seen as outcasts. When I saw the interview with his former classmates I mean his former classmates, you know these young men as well who are like 20 years old, and they seemed seriously, you know, disturbed in that they recognized like holy smokes, like no one ever did anything, like they were saying, you know, in their interviews, like no one ever did anything, no one ever stood up for him, no one ever invited him, sat with him, there was no group who didn't bully him in school, um, and you know it was awful and it no one said even anything in the interviews of like I wish I had done something.

43:08 You could just tell like all of them felt some level of guilt or responsibility, a little bit of like it was very fresh in their minds of like how he was treated, right, and you know, as someone who helps out with, you know, high school youth, um, I try to really make an effort to hang out with those that um don't really seem to have as much of a social circle to depend on, not because, not because I'm like, oh, I'm preventing an active shooter, right, not anything like that but just because I see, like you know, this kid might be hurting. This kid doesn't seem to have that like a social outlet to have someone up to open up to and, uh, someone who is showing any kind of care or investment in them.

43:54 Um, and I think it's something that maybe, like, if anything out of this, like, rather than walling up and, you know, being more paranoid, maybe start extending a little bit more, uh, kindness and invitations to those who might be these outsiders, right, like, act now you know what I mean. Like, if you know someone in your school or you know someone in your work who seems like a loner, seems like they are shunned uh, I'm not saying that you need to be their best friend, but just to be like a person who is a, you know, a light in their life and shows them kindness, can mean a lot.

44:37 I mean, I certainly recall times where I was that loner, you know, and where I felt very much on the outside and simple acts of kindness uh went a really long way to help me feel like, you know, I wasn't alone, that there were people who cared about me, um, and I guess I just think, like, really, like you know, that's kind of probably the real thing we should be focusing on here in like order to like, heal our nation and diffuse this kind of political tension, to stop, uh, othering others you know what I mean and start viewing them as humans. Um, I thought, uh, melania Trump had a really good statement that she had issued where it was essentially just saying, like someone only saw the demonized political shell of who my husband is and wanted to, and felt like violence against them was justified.

45:34 What they didn't see was my husband, who, you know, is a fan, he loves music, he loves to read to his grandchildren, he is a family man who, you know, likes to be present with meals with his like kids. Um, and because they didn't see he was human, it was easy to commit violence against him and like, regardless, what think about Trump? I'm not the biggest fan of the guy, right? I think I've made it clear at several points, like I'm not the biggest fan of what he says and how he acts or behaves, right? Um, I'm certainly not going to say, like this dude is, I'm certainly not one of the people who believes he's a good Christian, right, you know, um. But all that said, like I do, he's a good christian, right, you know, um.

46:15 But all that said, like, I do see him as a human, same way as I see, you know, I've never really liked biden. But, dude, my heart breaks to see him in his current state and it seems like no one cares about him. It seems like people are just kind of puppet puppeting him for whatever they can get out of him right now and he seems like a man who's not really getting good care, right, um, and you know, same thing with, like, rfk jr. I don't have a lot of opinions, uh, about him. Uh, yet, right, you know I haven't. I just I've only been listening to speak on things. But I still see him as a human who has already had two attempts on his life. You know, a lot of people forget there was a guy who tried to get to rfk jr when he was in a rally in california and he was posing as a us marshal, had firearms on him and when interviewed his, all he would say over and over was my plan was to get as close to rfk as I could and it's just like like dude.

47:05 There these are, and these are just countless examples of people who are dehumanizing and that guy in particular is rfk. He's, he's lived a life a little bit close to assassinations. Yeah, his uncle at 10 was killed and then his father was killed yeah, you know, assassinated I want to make sure I specify assassinated, um, and if you just stop for a second and realize like they're people, then maybe you'll kind of rethink. You know how you're going to treat them, and is it really worse to like drop your morals and be vindictive and venomous towards them, or is it better to like at least know, when you go to bed at night, like, regardless of how nasty other people are, you are able to treat them as human beings and be better than that?

47:52 I don't know. That's just how I see it. You know, and that's how my wife and I have been talking about it a lot, cause neither of us are super political. We have our political beliefs, but neither of us are very pro one candidate or the other, and it, uh, it certainly is something that, like, I think, breaks our hearts when we're just like what, what? What mentality do you get to? At what point where they stopped being humans and they're just things that are, they're just objects in which you are allowed to, in your mind, take violence against. Like that's a that's a pretty low road to reach mentally, uh, psychologically. Definitely, I agree and I think that, like you know, we were talking about, you know think that we're talking about this shooter in particular, who's a loner, bullied guy.

48:39 But also what's surprising is the amount of like we mentioned earlier. It's there's a lot of people out there with loud voices saying like that they're upset that he didn't achieve his mission and it's like okay, so that shows too that it's not just a disease or, like you know, that's going on with, like you know, a selective group of like a very, like you know, small, you know uh, outcast bit of society. It's like it's kind of a. It's a deep-seated, like a um social contagion within like a lot of people that they affected like and on a on a sliding scale all the way from like people legitimately like outspoken upset that trump's not dead over to people who are just kind of like yeah like I don't care, like that even happened, or like, or I'd be indifferent if it had happened, you know, like that sort of thing I think that it's interesting too to think we talked about earlier.

49:34 It's like what would it have been like the day after if he had been successful? What would the country been like? And I do think there's also like a conversation to be had around like, um, if an attempt had been made on biden's life and it was even unsuccessful, like if the exact same thing happened on his life, what would the country have looked like the next day around? Uh, like people in the streets, yeah, getting rowdy the it's. Yeah, I think we can kind of you know, uh, let's, let's move into the hypothetical right. Right and like this and this is all it is right Is we're not expert politicians or political science professors.

50:16 I think it's just a good thought study to just think about how close. I think a lot of people said it, but the first one I remember hearing say it the night of the attempt assassination on Trump was Vivek Ramaswamy in an interview and he said it wasn't just Donald Trump who narrowly dodged you know a bullet tonight which technically he didn't dodge it Like he got shot in the head. He got shot in the head. But he said America dodged a bullet because if Trump had been killed we could have seen the end to America as we know it.

50:56 And I was like at first I was like, okay, that's a little dramatic, saber rattling in a politician. Yeah, and then I was just thinking about it. I was, like you know, I'll be the first to admit, like I know, some pretty tilted. I wouldn't call them right wing, because I think that's often associated with Nazis, but I just know some pretty aggressive people, both men and women, who probably would have gone out in anger, looking for a fight, Looking for a fight, a fight, looking for a fight, um, not I'm not saying looking to kill or anything like that, but just looking for someone to, you know, be angry at and shake their fist at and blame um, and I think I mean we see that all the time on both sides, right, like we've seen that uh, you know, just kind of retaliation ideology on both sides.

51:45 You know, um, and you know I'll be the first to think that I'm gonna, I'm gonna say it, bro, I think the severity of january 6 is severely blown out of proportion. Oh yeah, um, but those people, I think, are the same people who would have gone out and and flipping cars and losing their minds, and you know and I'd say at which point you could then label an insurrection like like, like, like the the real version, because yeah, well, I think like you would, just like you could label that as an insurrection, just as you did with, like the antifa, uh blm riots where they literally took over federal buildings like exactly in that in nature, that is insurrection right and so like, what I've always said about like january 6th piece is like, like it was not good.

52:32 It was. I've all said it was not good. I was pissed when I saw it happened also. I've always like, as it's been so like blown out of proportion. I think in so many ways I'm also like people should just be glad, like everybody at that rally like didn't bring their arsenal yeah and everybody at that rally. I'll guarantee you there was enough guns owned by all those people to arm everybody in that crowd 10 times over. Oh yeah, like like if they had actually wanted to to, you know, storm and take over, it would have been a totally different like outcome. And so it's like this like thing where it's like, yeah, those types or whatever, like where you could have a shift, where it's like, yeah, the the day after assassination of trump.

53:14 If it was successful assassination of trump, I think very well could have seen, because I was even seeing, like you know, whatever all the the comments in the peanut gallery of like being like the word civil war gets tossed around rather flippantly these days too flippantly, and people being like kind of like honestly at there's a lot of people out there like asking like yes, so is it now? And they're like genuinely kind of like, so are we doing this now? Like yeah, like, oh, wow, okay. Like there's a lot, I think those are people who have no idea what war is, you know, yeah or like and the? what are you like? What's the? where do you, where do you first go? Yeah, where do you rally first? there's no mason dixon line exactly.

53:55 It's not an easy thing to know, right? so it's like and like, as we learned, if, like the last 20 years of fighting an ideology in the middle east, darwin's war too, baby, what are you going to do with? You know, within america, just people, an ideological war, yeah, of neighbor to neighbor to neighbor to neighbor to neighbor, all across the whole country. It's like there's there's, no, there's no hill to capture, like yeah, you know, I agree, um, I think, uh, you know if I'm hypothetical about it, right, and just trying to be, you know, as not like shock value as possible I think we would have seen that night, um, something similar to BLM riots, uh, just from the right, from the more conservative, right-leaning side of politics, um, and I think we would have seen just as much, as I think, like, there are good people who go out and protest in those, you know, riots and in those events is a lot of bad actors who just use it as an opportunity to do harm, to wild out, yeah, and I think we would have seen the same thing A lot of people going out, protesting, angry, saying, like you know, this is a failure of America, you know, and it has, it has failed me as an American, uh, and then a lot of bad actors going out in, you know, and it is, it has failed me as an American.

55:13 And then a lot of bad actors going out in, you know, whether that's arson or other property damage or, you know, harming other individuals directly. You know, I think we could have seen this, like, I think it is just as likely if Trump had been assassinated, we might have seen a version of, you know, a Kenosha kid just on the other side, you know, like someone else out there on the left who, uh, used to fire him on, so in self-defense, and today we'd be being reviewed critically right right now. It'd be like, and you know, we'd be going over the precedents of that. Um, I don't think we would have seen war, but I think we would have seen war, but I think we would have seen, politically, a pretty insane dissension of like walkouts from like DC governors stating that they are not going to be cooperating or voting on certain things or participating until, uh, a you know special investigation report was concluded to make sure there was no malpractice in the assassination.

56:22 You know what I mean. Like it wasn't allowed it to occur, uh, and we would see like just a lot more um gaslighting in regards to like this conspiracy of like it was a deep state thing. Um, and because already, bro, like we're already seeing things like dude, oh my gosh, I kind of want to just have you seen? I almost just I almost just said something that was like an exaggeration of political violence, so I'm changing my tongue. I wish lauren bobert would vanish into the mountains and just not speak on camera ever you know what I mean. I wish she would just live out her life as a farmer or something.

57:02 Because she went on to say, like biden is at fault for this. Biden said to put trump in the crosshairs and the bullseye, biden is essentially behind this assassination attempt. And I was just like, oh my, how can you think one that makes any logical sense? Especially if you're experienced in politics, you know that's just what this is a political campaign ad. This is not a call to violence and like how can you like think for one second that this is a morally good thing to say as well? and if anybody's to like be accused of that, it'd be trump, like because of his exaggeratory, boisterous language, sure, where it's like.

57:43 I don't know if you know if he's ever physically harmed somebody in his life or not, sure, right, you know? whatever you know him. You know whatever. You know the but meaning like but he says you know he's this will be a bloodbath. You know like you're gonna regret this. Like you know, these are like these, whatever it is like boisterous, like you know language, or it's like same thing with, like biden, like who it takes out of a threat you're, you're not crosshairs now, or whoever it's like. You know, like that's just, it's a, it's old men who are with big egos saying sayings yeah, you know, but then you have someone like bobert come out just just pumping up the crowd and honestly using it as their own yeah, springboard people like bobert, you know they just any coverage on them is good coverage in their eyes, even if it's for saying like dumb ass things that are going to probably be used to commit, like justify, acts of violence.

58:38 Um, so that's honestly like, just as like disappointed and angry it makes me to see like a BBC reporter uh let BBC reporter last week said biden should murder trump. He said because of the uh new uh supreme court. Like uh ruling that you know president can't be prosecuted for crimes he commits in office, which, to clarify, that bill just says um, a president won't be tried for possible crimes relating to their business that they conduct. Which is like you know, if biden had a cheeseburger stand, he was running and did tax fraud, right, he wasn't.

59:23 He won't be prosecuted during that. He has immunity during the time for acting president, because acting president takes precedence in severity over tax fraud for his burger and you don't. You don't think that biden likes that rule either yeah, exactly right. But like it's not a like people don't understand, like this is not just a thing that the supreme court said like oh yeah, the president could just start to like declaring the death of people and get away with it like that's not how it works. But this bbc journalist said, now that this passed, biden should murder Trump. He must take action now and eliminate Trump. He should murder him. And it's just like wow, that age great, didn't it? You know what I mean. And just as I'm angry at that, I'm equally angry at Boebert and other people on the right saying things like this to only inflame things because both of them are not being cool.

1:00:09 You only inflame things, uh, because both of them are not being cool. You know what I mean. Neither of those are cool heads and it's very inflammatory, um, so I don't know that's. That's kind of where my hypotheticals are, and like my concerns, uh, in the language surrounding it right now. Um, it does make me sad to see like the everyday person literally thinking it is a moral position to wish the death for another person. You know, no matter how much the words hitler and nazi get thrown around at trump, like he's not that ask anyone who lived in germany when hitler was rising to power. This ain't it bud like that. That is not the situation we're in here yeah and you know, even then, like, let's just say, you know, like, would you, like you wouldn't have any just legal justification for when hitler was rising to power to assassinate him, right, that's a hindsight action.

1:01:06 You know what I mean. Like to kill. You know we're talking about like killing someone based off of what you believe they will do down the road without them having committed any of those actions. Like that gets into pretty like difficult moralistic relativity area, right, um, and you know, if that's the case, that, like, you're going to be killing a lot of people, you know, based on like thought crimes. Right Minority report Exactly. That's where we start getting to when you start thinking that way, and so all that said it's just. It's just sad to me to see that, because, like also, I say the same thing to people who are like Biden is Hitler, biden is Mussolini.

1:01:48 I'm just like is he though? Is Biden taking food out of your mouth? Is he like passing laws that, like, if you don't have, you're giving him a lot of credit too. Yeah, in some ways. Okay, Biden's admins, Mussolini, Right, you know what I mean, but it's just one of those things where I'm just like gosh, you were like you're generalizing and exaggerating to a degree that is harmful not to just yourself but others around you. Um, and people need to kind of like you don't know what you're saying. Yeah, exactly Like you're just speaking. You're just regurgitating words you've heard and you don't even know the context of the things you're saying. So all I said, that's kind of my summary.

1:02:30 I guess I'm like hypotheticals and currently, what I wish? Uh, you know my kind of call to action. As you know, mick, who's a nobody, is begging and pleading be kind to people, show them kindness and, uh, be vigilant. But I would encourage you to extend a hand in kindness before extending a fist in anger right now, cause you're only probably going to make things worse if you go with the ladder. Yeah, escalating. Any other thoughts from you, Pat, any other kind of final closing things? Not really. I mean, there's like there is all sorts of things you could get into around like potential silly theories of conspiracy and this, that the other.

1:03:14 I personally think that this was like a was what it was. Yeah, disgruntled, angry, lone kid trying to make his mark and and do what his, what in his like psyche and brain, and what he derives, or what he derived out, was that was the thing that had to be done or whatever. Um, you know, but there's interesting things to look and do like he was in a black rock commercial I did see that like things, like that or whatever weird things like that. You know, you know all those sorts of that sort of crap. You know so strange, you know. But, um, yeah, I think that it's uh, obviously we're living in a time where I think it's this, it's not as bad as everybody thinks.

1:03:59 It is like and I say this a lot in closing out the show it's like you have a, do you have a heat source and a roof over your head. Are you ever hungry? Yeah, it's hard right now to buy a house. Yeah, it's hard to like make ends meet and yeah, like you don't get to own a boat. You're not going to be a ceo of fortune 500 company, whatever all the lies you believe that. You're not going to be a tiktok star who's just rolling in the millions like you're just. This is this is your life, your middle class current situation it is. This is where you're at and like, but your current situation is pretty damn good. You got a car. You maybe have a friend or family, some loved ones, whatever people you can talk to hang out with. Have a beer on a friday night, like I don't know, play your video games that's like that's a, that's a privilege or whatever.

1:04:44 Everything's like just a comfort, everything's a comfy privilege we have in this country now. I think all that stuff could be lost and go away. But it's like at this, like like the point before, where people are saying these, throw around words flippantly like nazi or civil war and these things, and they know not what they say of, like the, um, the true gravity of what a situation like that looks like. Like. I think that we're everybody's just too tuned up and tuned into, like to the the doom, scrolling yep and and then, and that becomes fact in their mind instead of getting a little perspective on what their life actually is like yeah, and you know, in in keeping in kind of what we have been going over through east of eden.

1:05:33 Right, I'm speaking. I'm speaking to our christian audience, right, because I'm a firm believer in you can't hold non-christians accountable to the same morals you hold christians to. But if you are out there and you say, hey, christ, christ is king, and I'm a Christian, I'm a believer, and you are pro the assassination of any presidential candidate running right now, or you think you'd be happier if someone was killed in one of these incidences, I encourage you to really reflect on the word Timshel. It's a command in scripture by God to have dominance over sin, to conquer sin and to deny sin.

1:06:26 And it's a promise of God that if you are a follower of Christ through the Holy Spirit, you will be led away from sin. But you need to surrender yourself to that and allow God's morality to replace your own. And as it says in East of Eden, timshel can be framed as thou mayest like. Thou mayest rise above sin. You have the opportunity. You have the personal choice to not sin. To be good doesn't mean you have to be perfect, and I really encourage people just reflect like are you choosing to be good?

1:07:08 Any action you take, can you say that is the good action, that is the sinless, the, the, the sinless choice? Uh, and if you can't outright say yep, then you're probably in error and you're probably going against God's ways. Um, and you're probably not exercising character of Christ. Um cause, unfortunately there are. Um cause, unfortunately there are, I know, just a lot of believers who justify wishing harm on someone who is not Hitler. You know what I mean? Uh, and even then go see the new Bonhoeffer movie. He really wrestled with assassinating Hitler. Um you know what I mean. He felt that the character of Christ, uh, was a potential obstacle to justifying his involvement in an assassination of an evil, evil man.

1:07:54 Um, so check that out, um, but that's, I think, my final thing right, just because I I know we have a lot of believers who listen um in on this yeah, I agree. It's that in your free will you have the choice, choice and, like you were saying, if you feel like you'd feel happier about someone dying, also also at the same time especially lots of Christians today too and if you also are elevating your political figure to a darn near Messiah Ideologies, elevating your political figure to a darn near Messiah ideologies, and then uh, and and and, and that idolatry, and, and there's also, there's, there's a um room to do some thought there too, around what what's that look like?

1:08:44 Is that? Is that? Is that good? Is that good? You know? yeah, yeah, is that? Is that good? Is that good? You know who's that? Yeah, yeah, so anyways, uh, thanks for joining us. Uh, nice, little quick wrap up. Uh, mickey pasha, we'll be back with the final part of east of eden. Uh, next week, part four in the summary of the book. Uh, so catch that out. Um, hopefully you've been enjoying the dog, your dialogues. Uh, we're also. We just released a fun little uh short. We're also. We just released a fun little short let's play game, where you know, we played a game together and that was really fun. So hopefully we'll be doing more of those if we could find other good games that lend themselves to kind of the audio format of podcasts. But all I said, pat got to sign off for me.

1:09:27 Till next time.