Dog-Eared Dialogues - East of Eden Part 3

0:00 Yo Ken, welcome to the Mickey Pat Show Dog Ear Dialogues. Part three of East of Eden. Thanks for joining us. We appreciate you for joining in and hopefully you are enjoying East of Eden if you're kind of reading along with it before listening to these parts. And yeah, we really hope you're getting a lot out of the conversation here. We certainly are enjoying it. I've pretty much basically listened to the book a second time at this point, just going through it again to make sure I keep a correlation of you know chapter summaries and timeline order, and it's nice because Billie Jean's been listening to it too.

0:41 The only issue is that when your spouse is consuming something you enjoy so much after you did it, if they're not equally enthusiastic, it can be painful. Is she somewhat enthusiastic. She thinks she kind of burned out she's like, oh no, it's a good book, great, but the thing she keeps saying is like it's a good book, I don't think it's life-changing. I'm like just give it a, give it some time, okay, and I get it. I don't think chapter one is life-changing or not. Chapter one, part one. I don't think part two is life-changing. Yeah, I do think part three is where I was starting to like really grapple with things, yeah, and like, especially, just like reflecting on mortality and you know how you love your loved ones, how you leave them what your legacy is.

1:35 Yep, and I think that the I don't know if you can relate to this, but as a kid driving around with my dad in the car Okay, yeah, I know, sorry in the car Okay, yeah, I know Sorry. There was. Oh hey, he'd put on the talk radio Mm and I was like whether it was sports or news. I was just like this is wretched yeah. Dude talk radio as a kid was so awful so I have zero interest in this at all. And now I'm a 30 something year old man. Listen to podcasts, just listening to people, yeah, like it's like talk radio on crack.

2:17 It's just hours upon hours of just talking and talking, and talking, talking, yeah, and then I'll turn on the old rock station, the old country station. I'm like not feeling it. I go back to the talkers, yeah. And so I think what I'm getting at here is it may in somewhat depend on the stage of life you're in and what you're thinking and what you're going through, that this book affects you. I also truly think that this is one's going to catch me a flag. I think that, not as a generality, but just as a experience statement I'm not saying men experience more trauma than women or anything like that, but I do think that I've experienced more, perhaps like Kathy's and Charles, and my wife has, I think Billy, and I think Billy Jean would not see that as like a challenge statement, because she knows, like the jobs I've worked and the people I've hung around and stuff in, like all that, and so I think like perhaps, maybe like a little bit of it might be too of like I don't know if my wife has ever struggled with Tim Scholl, to be honest, like I don't, man, I think my wife might be Aaron has ever struggled with Tim Scholl.

3:26 To be honest, like I don't. Yeah, I think my wife might be Aaron. Yeah, you know what I mean. Like or yeah, she's just good. Yeah, and she can't really. Like I don't know if she's ever really wrestled with the concept of not choosing to not sin the Almayest. You know what I mean. Like Mae Swindew, she likes to do whatever the rule is. She enjoys doing the rule does she not enjoy it when you're not doing the rules exactly? oh, that's crazy, because that's billy jean. Billy jean's like we should just do the rules. The rules are the best option. But going for it and then like if I'm like rules smooth, she's like we're not having fun. I'm not having fun and we're breaking the rules.

4:07 Yep, yep. And so that's why, like my wife, like never got spanked, or and or like disciplined. You didn't have to, she was like what's the program? I'm doing it. And that's you know, and that's why you married him. It's probably a better. That's the best wife you could hope for. It's a smoother way through the place. Do you really want a rebellious wife who is constantly questioning the order of operations and why we do things? No, I don't, but I was the one who, like when my mom said we're standing on the curb, she said do not step one foot in the street.

4:48 Yeah, I was like three and a half. I stared her down in the eyes and I just tapped my toe on the street and put it back on the curb. What would you do if one of your boys did that to you? Man? Well, I would suppress a grin. Yeah. I'd fake a cough and suppress a grin and a little chuckle and then, depending on my mood, I would either gently explain to them why daddy says to not put your foot in the road, because I care about them and love them. Or I'd say what the hell and I would slap their hand or give them a thump right in the road because I care about them and love them. Or I'd say what the hell? And I would slap their hand or give them a thump right in the noggin Thump with the finger, not a fist thump.

5:32 Like a dog flick, yeah, dog flick, the dog flick comes in handy. But so all that to say, yeah, that first reaction is what I would shoot for, but the second reaction could be also what comes out of me. In my own efforts to choose one way or the other. Well, all I said, thanks for joining us. We are drinking some beer. Tree of Knowledge. It is an unfiltered DDH DIPA which is what again, Pat? It's not an illegal drug. It stands for unfiltered double dry hop.

6:13 Double dry hopped IPA. Double dry hopped. What's the other D? Double dry hopped DDH. I don't know what that I don't know the Deepa. D-i-p-a. Is it a misprint? I don't think it's a misprint, man, I think it. I bet it's just like unfiltered double dry, hopped dry IPA. You know what I mean? Yeah, or double. Or maybe it's like a. Double, IPA. It's a double dry hopped and then it's supposed to be a deeper double IPA. To their credit, you know and we're not reviewing beers on this, but to their credit. I did say it tastes like pineapple and they said think juicy pineapple, ripe papaya and peach nectar.

6:57 Yeah. I think they kind of hit it All right. Props to you guys. Tree of knowledge, I'm not giving you thumbs up or anything like that right now. That's a different segment, Pat. There's really not too many new characters in the corner, but we for the first time get some real, like actual, I guess you could say development. It's like Aaron and Cal are introduced for the first time you know what I mean. Like they now have dialogue and personalities. Exactly, and the last in the end of part two. They're basically just babies, toddlers and they and when we find them here, you know as we go through part three they are.

7:38 You know, we first see them kind of probably at this, like I think it's like this 10 to 12 year old stage. You know we first see them kind of probably at this, like I think it's like this 10 to 12 year old stage. You know, young boys. I think they said they were 11 years old, yeah, and so you know this, which is a great age of boys. That's why I remember, like being a boy. It talks about a rabbit. It gives a great example of them out rabbit hunting, and I think about this with, like me and my buddies or my cousin growing up like this is that's the time of life and, like you have some freedom for the first time and that's also when you kind of start learning about the world. Yeah, you know you start because you're hearing what the kid up the street says from his older brother, these things, whatever it is like, and you're developing thoughts on your own.

8:21 You have to defend yourself on your own or you have to do, um, you know, navigate the world on your own. And so that's kind of where we intersect the Trask boys beginning to navigate the world on their own. And and Aaron and Cal are really depicted in very, very similarly to you know, um, excuse me, to Adam andles and, uh, you know in there and how they are as people. You know aaron is described as handsome, good natured, morally upstanding, and he's a little naive too, I think. And and cows um kind of manipulative worldly knows what's going on, maybe street smart kid, um, a little bit conniving and and, like you know, he's kind of always making a plan, making his neck making moves.

9:10 He's making moves. He's cunning like his mother dude. Yeah, just like kathy and but he's also protective of aaron as well, um, and so we've seen this, or seeing them develop as you, you know, this next generation of Cain and Abel. Just curious for you is there anything in Aaron, at least from what we you know know about so far in the book? Is there any part of Aaron? You see that's not Adam, I think the Like it almost seems to me like Aaron is just Adam to his core and Cal is Charles and Kathy. You know what I mean. Like characteristically. Yeah, I think that Aaron does have some of his. He differs from Adam in that, like Adam is just, adam's big downfall is his passivity and.

10:01 Aaron's downfall is his naivety. Yeah, sure, like you know, just so, there's just different sides of a coin there and so they do. They are their own. You know he doesn't write them as just a mirrored image, you know, and they do have their own Like. When I think of them, I think of like distinctive characters between Adam and Aaron, not just like clone copies, almost. I think of like this distinctive characters between Adam and Aaron, not just like clone copies, almost, cause there are little. There are little like interactions throughout where you see how they are their own person. Sure, yeah, I can see it. Um, you know, uh, some other characters. That uh new character coming in is Abra and she is she's the same age as Aaron and Cal and uh, and she is the daughter of a local businessman.

10:48 But she's kind of portrayed as a little bit wise, beyond her years or mature, just in the way that she understands, she speaks more like an adult, she has a handle on the situation, situation I think there's even like a line of uh kind of like meta level dialogue of just like, as young girls tend to, they mature and desire to be adults sooner than boys, and it's like she definitely sees these boys, recognizes they don't have a mother and immediately sees an opportunity to be like what young girls seek to be, and all young girls that I can think of when I was 11 or 12, no 11 or 12-year-old girl wanted to be an 11 or 12-year-old girl Right Like the petty boy things going on.

11:34 She's just so above it. They either always wanted to be your girlfriend, your mom, your sister. They never wanted to be a little girl. You know what I mean. Like that's just how I think about like all of the girls I remember being friends with. Then you know, and Abra, clearly, here is like she's ready to be the mom to these boys, definitely, and you know, and we'll see her biggest development in this story really comes in. You know, part four, oh yeah, as she continues on in this story really comes in you know part four. Oh yeah, as she continues on in this story and we get to see also some other characters who had mentioned before. They're now adults, which is the Hamilton children and the main.

12:17 There's really three that I think are mainly focused on in part three, which is we have Tom and he's a lot like sam. He's almost, you know he's, he thinks like sam, he's always. Well, he's the one working with sam, and and uh, he's, he's an inventive, dreamer, creative type um. But he isn't sam hamilton all the way yeah, he's like he's just sam's messiest parts. But none of sam's like, uh, none of sam's duckish behavior, right, and I mean that in like uh, tom can't let things go right and I think also he like he's, he's sam hamilton if sam didn't have perspective on the world, because Sam has this like broad, vast perspective and a worldview that really ascends, but, like Tom, is kind of down-focused, you know, like knows in it, and so he can't rise above or get away from it.

13:17 And whenever Sam was talking about Tom, he talks about these things, you know, and he makes reference to his concerns for Tom. It is interesting that they, like several times in this part like I don't remember them saying it in any of the other parts but they talk about they say Samuel Hamilton was a beautiful man and what Tom lacked was Samuel's beauty. And I can't think I'm like. I don't know if they mean that just like, physically, like Samuel Hamilton was this, you know, burly bearded, tawny skinned, just handsome as hell, farmer, irish man that just had an elegance to him and the way he just carried through life, through life.

14:06 Or if they mean like the beauty of like, the like samuel's mind right to like, have these super complicated like philosophies that he can simply just let go and like the self-awareness of like, you know, when he always says like you know, I only feel myself becoming more irish when I get invited to talk right, and that he's like, and then he warns someone he's like, careful, now I could figure myself turning irish, you know. And so I kind of like, I think like I don't know what that, like what they meant by that, but I don't know, do you feel like you got like? What do you kind of think when they reference the two in comparison? yeah, I agree, because I think I do kind of see also like this is maybe like an extreme example, but like take a guy who's just like well-rounded renaissance man, he can, he can garden and play some music, but he can also like fix anything and just like he's he's got, he's jovial, but then his he's got the son who's kind of like in the basement, who's like the emo kid, who's like he's like doing a lot of art.

15:05 You know, yeah, exactly like he's down there, like in the basement, like, but he's also like you know, he's he, he, he's an artist in his own right type of thing. But you know, he's not really that as fun to be around, or like he just doesn't have that it thing. And and you know, that's kind of a little bit where I see here that like just, uh, he just he's the incomplete version of it and he's his own self, because I think he's also he's a, he's a bit of a tortured soul and, like I was saying how Sam references, I forget the exact quote that Sam says. He says, you know things along the line of like you know, if Tom heard about this, he'd be mulling it over for years. Or like like he'd be trapped in a river, like he's not going to be able to get out of this or he's, you know he kind of spins out and so, um, the and I think, a lot of, I think I've seen other, I've seen guys like this.

15:54 I picture guys like this who do like come up in their father's footsteps and then in some ways never get out from out of their father's shadow. And to be like the son of a great man can be a difficult thing if you're, you know, like you want to be great, so you just be like your dad, but then you never get to be who you are. You never get to be you, you know in that sense. And so there's some of that going on here with Tom, and we'll get into that as his story unfolds. And then there's also Will, and he's just Will is a wheeler, dealer, entrepreneur, and he's also. He's the realist. People bring business ideas to him and he'll just tell you straight up, right away, he'll say that's trash, that's a bad idea.

16:39 Will's a. This is the song I thought of when I was listening to the section for Will. It was just you know, you hear like he's the dude slinging cars, has comfy furniture to make people at ease with the you know idea of how much money they're about to spend. I just think, like Paula, Jacques, Paula, 44 inches on Paula, you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, and it's like that's Will, 100% Like so wrapped up that he can't even like take time to mourn his dead dad Right, and he is also that same type of guy you're singing about, like nobody knows how rich he is or not, he's a hustler baby. Yeah, because nobody. It's like there's people in the world too where you know, like you have you got your social media clout guys, where it's like, yeah, they got three lamborghinis, but they're probably not wealthy, exactly yeah but then you've got like then there's other guys who are just like.

17:32 There's there's we see, we, you see, you see those other people in the world too. You just like see that guy and you're like he's got the toyota sequoia yeah, but he's also like got like 50 bitcoin, yeah, exactly, or yeah or, but like, or even like a guy who's just like, but just, he's not flaunting, whatever. You're like, that guy's rich, I know that guy's rich with. When it comes to will, we're like we have no idea, but he's got the ideas he's because we also hear in this book too, or there's whether he's going to a meeting or not, he always tells people he's got somewhere to be and then he'll just go around the corner of the coffee shop and sit there for a few hours, as if to leave everybody in mystery of you know what's he got going on. He's got something going on. He's in the mix. You know he knows the next thing coming, and so that's who will is.

18:15 And, um, he also brings a little bit of a voice of reason to the family as well, like, uh, he does have good, um, kind of feet on the ground. Hey, this is. You know, if you're just, if we're getting away from all these deep thoughts and things, you can go hang out and behind the barn with lee and sam and drink whiskey and talk about stuff that may or may or may not exist, but, like, I can tell you, like real world. Here's the deal yeah, he's definitely comes off to me as like if samuel lost all of his dreamer abilities and just his and just became that solely entrepreneurial farmer. Right like he, he patented the right inventions.

18:55 He made people pay him up front for work that would get done eventually and made sure that, like all the work he agreed to do would be work that came with like dividends down the road of like oh hey, like I need you to work on this fence again. I need you know what I mean, stuff like that yeah and he's just. He's just all of those pieces of samuel and he is the kid too who's like, sees his dad and knows what he doesn't want to want yeah, out of it and he doesn't take, which is sad, you know. Like you know what I mean. Like the, the like you can tell he he says it. I don't know if he says it here in part four, right, but like will has that comment about how, like you know, look what all those ideas got them pretty much like got him and my brother tom like didn't do anything for him.

19:40 Yeah, like that, that dreaming um but anyways, yeah, and then we have also, uh, desi um is the daughter of sam and she's just this content pleasant person. She lives in town, she makes, she sews dresses. She doesn't even really make make money doing it 10 months in advance, though, like people have to order dresses or 20 months in advance, they have to order dresses. So at the peak of her business, you know she's like she's the it thing, she's the thing in town, but also she's. You know she's not even in it for the dresses as much as she's in it. She just wants a bunch of people coming by every day and sitting to talk and like be together.

20:23 Yeah, and so she's this. You know people want to be around her and she's. She brings, like this, life and joy. She's the social part of Sam. Yeah, you know what I mean. They have like only Sam's social stuff was channeled, funneled down. To her for sure. And then we get into like kind of the opposite of this Desi, which is the daughter Una, and get into like kind of the opposite of this desi, which is the daughter una, and she's kind of she's briefly described, you know, and she's kind of just like a semi-dark or brooding character they say she's not pretty. Yeah, they say like she's got pretty hands and pretty feet so, uh, um, she, you know the, and she passes, like she's spoken of, and then she passes away yeah, she dies almost immediately upon like getting any idea of who she was and what she meant to samuel and, and we may talk about it more, but you know, as desi may be, the be the social side of Samuel I think Uno was the private side of Samuel there is a for any.

21:31 I think this rings true for just lots of humans who can hit the really high highs. Those are the humans who also can hit the really low lows. You know the guy who's the I see this a lot with, like my buddies who struggled with depression and stuff, like lots of those guys. When they're in a social circle, they're typically the life of the party. You know also, it's like they've got these, these high highs, low lows, his. You know his struggles, his. You know his thought life, his, um, his doubts, or you know the things that we wrestle with in life.

22:13 And so that's where you know the and we'll get into it is how, like, when she passed away, it was a real loss for samuel, um, and you know that that's really the characters who come on the scene here and the other characters are pretty well set on their paths. Um, who we've talked about, um, and so, yeah, the and, as you know, and we've characterized to in a in a more broad perspective, we're looking at you know, you have the trask family and the hamilton family, and and while they are in some ways mirrored to each other as far as they're not necessarily mirrored they're almost different sides of a pendulum in their origins and who they come from we see them in part three all start to have to deal with the choice.

23:03 And we're going to talk about the choice more. Yeah, yeah, deal with the choice and we're gonna talk about the choice more. Yeah, yeah, so, um, the kind of summary for part three, right, is like first time in the book really, that like death is introduced, um, as like a forefront problem and, uh, with the concept of know immortality through the pieces we leave behind, you know who we are after our death goes on to have profound impacts on others and like their psyche. And this ultimate theme of Timshel, which is a Hebrew word which is translated here in Steinbeck's text as meaning thou mayest, in reference to thou mayest, choose to overcome sin, thou mayest choose to sin or not.

23:54 It's introduced in a very philosophical discussion between Lee, samuel and Adam and in it the following chapters after it's introduced, we kind of just get like back to back to back to back to back examples of Timshel and it feels very to me, it feels very like intentional, like Steinbeck really wanted to be, like here's the core thing. And here are, like you know, 10 or 15 examples across a whole spectrum of characters and stories where thou mayest sin or not, thou mayest choose to sin, thou mayest choose not to, and, uh, this concept, true power, and like, uh, the like lee's allusion to.

24:46 Like you know, this choice uh elevates man to the position of god, like the. The opportunity to choose to sin or not is essentially the opportunity to choose fate and to choose destiny itself, and it, it, you know, gives us the capacity of being absolute good in spite of the opportunity to do absolute evil. Um, and I think that's a, it's a really beautiful part, and like, of course, uh Steinbeck's main theme for the, for the book as a whole. But, um, hopping on into it, um, I think, uh, chapter 24, um, hopping on into it, um, I think uh, chapter 24, this is a good place to kind of focus.

25:28 Um, aaron and Cal are these young boys, now they're 11, and uh, samuel Hamilton is accepting that he is old, um, and it is the death of Una that we see age him, you know, he receives word that Una dies and with it, a part of his spirit died, and he continually confides in Tom, telling Tom, like you know, you have to kind of confront these things and work through them. And it says, though, but like Samuel never got back to who he was before that, but like Samuel never got back to who he was before that and that like all of his children saw and realized when they came to see him for Thanksgiving that he had like aged severely and they're like what happened while we were gone living our lives?

26:15 You know what happened to dad? Dad can't die, that's not possible. Samuel can't die and Tom, like lets it know, is like well, like una's death is what took a piece of him away and it's broken his spirit to a degree in which, like, he won't be able to bounce back. Um, and I think like that in of itself is interesting because, like I feel like I've seen that, especially among the elders in my life, you know, when I think about my grandparents or other people's grandparents and stuff like that and like, dude, the death of a kid, just like you know it radically, I think, changes uh, a parent, especially at that age's ability to like just be in good health.

26:59 And it's not even like a mental thing, like I'm not saying like they're always depressed or anything, I'm just talking like dude, I really do feel like my grandmother's condition after my uncle's uh death, like right during covid, I really do feel like my, my grandma's health really started like not, I mean, she lived, you know, till 2023, but like it was still like right after that is like when I feel like it started getting worse and worse and worse and she never really recovered out of that um you know where. Because, like where prior to that event she had like being cancer and stuff like that, just like a few months before and was like on an upward spin right, and so it's just one of those things of like, yeah, like I get what they're saying, you know this image that you have.

27:42 And I didn't think like I get what they're saying. You know this image that you have. And I didn't think like I didn't pity my grandmother, you know I didn't be like, oh, my grandmother, she's in this funk. I thought she was a very jovial, happy, strong woman. I still thought that. But I really just do think like the idea of this you know death and how we have to confront death with our loved ones. When it occurs, it really does chip a piece of you away and at a certain point in age, I really just don't think physically you bounce back from those deaths yeah, and there's supposed to be something psychological there too, where it's just like it's you. You never spend any time thinking about how your children are gonna die.

28:22 Like you do have worries for your kids, but like sure, like as a kid, you eventually realize people die. People, typically older, die. So like I'm starting to process and deal with the fact that my parents will die someday. Right, there's like a, there's a. Usually, you know it's not, usually there's a long buildup to to that and like like a long processing and like, okay, then it happens and it's still hard then, but then, yeah, the uh, you know there's like there's no placeholder in your psyche for, really, that it's actually just your worst fears coming true, the worst from the time they're born. That's like your worst fear is like the death of a kid and you don't, you don't have a. It's only filed in that, that place in your brain.

29:04 That is the, the worst outcome. And then for it to happen, whether you know at any point in your life to outlive your kids, is that the thing that changes you? And it's interesting too, like, and then even I've seen it happen to people too, even when it's not with, uh, the death of a kid or or anything in particular, but like just weird, when all of a sudden you do come to visit and all of a sudden they're old you know, it's like, it's like well, how, how did that happen? yeah, you know, and that's what. That's what these kids are, his, the sam's kids are struck with when they come to visit just this. What happened to my, to the, to the guy, this immortal man? yeah, that was life you know, uh, literally physical life incarnated, right, you know he's, he's this, you know, borderline, mythical man in the way his family themselves view him, um, but yeah, so, um, it's after that that, like uh, samuel accepts that it's time to hang up the good old farming hat and him and Liza agree to go visit their kids post Thanksgiving, because they get a letter saying hey, you know, mom, dad, how about you?

30:16 Come on a vacation and come stay with us for a while? Yeah. Which I find really interesting, because that concept of grandma, grandpa, coming to visit and not working anymore is not a death sentence, right? But like I guess back then, like you know the concept of like, oh, if I stopped working and I go on vacation, it's going to take, you know, two weeks to get there, and then we'll be there for probably like three weeks and it'll be a hard journey to go back, but then the other kids are going to want us to come visit, so we'll probably be gone for like four years. Yeah, you know what I mean? it's like yeah it's like I guess I understand, like it's a way different concept today versus then because even like the, the reality of the time it took to do such a thing, oh yeah.

31:00 But then also like I don't like when my grandpa sold his business, like he really struggled, like really yeah, like when he finally, like he had retired, but then he'd still like he owned some property, like he owed, he was a landlord to a couple like of like of his restaurants. He'd sold, he owned, he had still owned the properties. And then when he finally like and he was always, he was like like Sam Hamilton, always having ideas and things and working on something. He's always sketching out a new design on a napkin and working towards something Like you know, working towards something as a man had a vision for his life in the future and all of a sudden, just to hang it up and there's no, there's no, nothing.

31:41 He just hung it all everything up at once. I mean essentially, like when he hung up the final thing. Sure, you know, like the final thing, the one that had been, you know, when he hung up the final thing, it was just like you're accepting the fact that you're like I'm just now here till I die right that's so strange, and so it is like for a man like sam hamilton, who's like driven visionary, to now have there's no like, even if it's all pretend in a sense like your future visions and your plans and all the stuff you're going to do, but it's getting wrapped up and you're like, and then I think what happens to people is they all of a sudden go, they turn, they get into their eighties and they go, they look back on their life and they say that all that all happened a little faster than I expected and now I'm, I'm done, like it's done, and so it's a.

32:30 It's a really hard thing to to go through. That's where and it's funny too, where sam is still. He's not like an invalid, he's coherent enough to know what his kids are doing. Oh yeah, and and you see that with, like you know, it's like he's coy, yeah, he just goes, he just pretends, he just goes along with it. He's like all right, like yeah, okay, I'll come visit. Yeah, but in himself he knows the decision he's made yeah, he knows. And like he says, I know where I'm going. Yeah, um, which I just think is interesting because, like my grandfather has gone and visited so many dying men and women who were like on their deathbed and stuff, and there were dudes that he was hanging out and doing life with up until the day they died Right, and it would be like you know, sometimes they knew they were going to die for months, you know whether it was like diabetes or cancer, and so I guess I've just never really thought like there's been that many people I've encountered through like the you know older people in my life that have really just hung up the hat.

33:28 You know, like my grandfather he retired from work back in his 60s but like he keeps himself busy with like meeting up with dudes and like doing, you know, just faith-based stuff, you know, meeting up with people going on to conferences. I just really can't imagine him like not driving to go meet someone. You know what I mean. Right, Like for coffee or something I just talk about, like how they're doing in their walk with God or whatever you know. And I think, like I think, even if I don't know, I just genuinely believe like even if it was going to kill him, he'd still just be like, well, I'd rather die in my truck driving to meet someone than just like give meeting up with people right, which I get you know, I mean like, like.

34:08 Can you imagine a day in your life where you just give up meeting up with people? right, I'd be like no, like I don't you know, and I think that's where, like where you know, it's just the uh I think it's a different time right, you know, I mean like a different concept, time wise, but for sure, um, anyways, all that said it, he, he is saying his goodbyes to his friends and he saves going to adam for last um, and it's he's been a couple months since he last visited adam and he says, you know, it's described like adam is still like, even though adam had this moment where he's you know, he named the boys and he moved on with life, like he still has not moved on from the pain of losing, losing Kathy, and Samuel knows it, and like Lee knows it, and Sam kind of like has this dread about him of like going to visit Adam because he knows who Adam is now.

35:03 Like going to visit adam because he knows who adam is now. Um, but in this moment, like adam does say, like you know, you being here and knowing this is goodbye, like has brought me, kind of like woken me up a little bit, and they start sitting and talking and then you know adam's like lee, you know, grab the tea because we're clearly gonna have a convo. Sam stay for dinner, right, and they, uh, they get onto this topic, um, of like something profound that lee has discovered that he wanted to share with samuel, and uh, lee goes into this uh discussion about how he was looking into these two translations of this of the Bible.

35:46 And one was a command of God to Cain, to it was a command to essentially like overcome sin. A command like you will overcome sin, like there is no option, you have to do this. And the other one was like a promise. And it was like promised, like I promise, uh, you will win over sin. And even though it's not a command on the individual, it is a there is no choice, right, it is a promise from god yeah, and what. And one being you like must, yeah, like like one, this is like you, you must know. And being like yeah, that in that other sense, and so it was binary in the two, two translations and then you know, uh, lee is talking with, like his more uh, like chinese philosopher family members and uh, they get into like trying to make sense of this, this phrase, and the different translations, so much that they go and learn Hebrew and they talk about, and Lee talks about how like funny this concept is of like these old wise Chinese philosophers learning Hebrew and then painting Hebrew in like essentially like Cantonese, like methodology of like up to down and like left to right, right, and uh, he's just like, can you imagine that, like me and these three old Chinese men learning Hebrew and painting with you know ink and brush Chinese, uh, not Chinese, but Hebrew characters, and they invite um a uh rabbi out to help them understand it in this Jewish scholar to help them understand.

37:27 Eventually they all settle on this interpretation of this word, which is interpreted different ways in scripture, but it's, it's Timshel, and they settled on the translation that Timshel means not you must or you will, but thou mayest, you may overcome sin, you may rule over sin. And the whole quote here that I really like from Lee is but the Hebrew word, the word Timshel, thou mayest, that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world that says the way is open.

38:09 That throws it right back on man. Why that makes a man great, that gives him stature with the gods, for in his weakness and his filth and his murder of his brother, he has still the great choice he can choose his course and fight it through and win. Um, and this is the crux of the whole whole novel, I think, uh, thematically, is that, um, no matter what evil a man does, a human does right, not just man, but like no matter what evil humans do, they have a choice. Um, and I think it's kind of like the point of like humans do they have a choice, and I think it's kind of like the point of like emphasizing Kathy's not a human. There will never be a cat choice for Kathy.

38:51 Kathy can never, can never choose to overcome sin. But every other characters demonstrated to be shown like they have a choice and that choice is the choice to choose their destiny, essentially like to choose if they will be good or if they will be evil. Um and uh, I do want to say this every where I've looked online, every jewish scholar and biblical scholar has said like this is an incorrect, correct interpretation of this hebrew word. This is not what the hebrew word means. A lot of people have conceded like yeah, like you could theoretically say, just like how you could say like um, you know you can rephrase anything right to kind of mean one thing or another, like thou mayest the.

39:40 It's not a far stretch from the literal translation of how the word is used in Hebrew, but the word in Hebrew really pretty much is like a 100% confidence case of this will occur and it is usually used in the form of a command Like this will be done, and it's used in the 100, 100, absolute right, right. So all that said, uh, steinbeck did reach out to jewish scholars. He did go back and forth with them and he did believe like in the conversations and stuff like that. When he was writing the book he was like hey, I think we have enough of a case here to make it this and he.

40:22 There's even letters you can read online where steinbeck's like thou mayest disagree, like you know what I mean and like it's just kind of a joke, but like he was clearly aware that, like he was stretching it here. But it's the crux of the story and the truth is is like I think, if I think, if steinbeck had been a little bit more versed and just verses in the Bible, right, he would have seen, like that there were other verses that could kind of support this idea. Right, like that we have the choice to sin or not. Right, and it's not a new thing to I think you or I right, I think, like you and I are both very familiar with this concept as Christians and believers.

41:04 Like, yes, I think you were right. Right, I think, like you and I are both very familiar with this concept as Christian. Like in believers. Like yes, I do have a choice. I don't think God predestined me to sin or not sin. Right, like, I think it's my choice if I it's my choice if I swear, it's my choice. If I get angry, it's my choice. If I lust, it's whatever. Right, it's also my choice if I find victory in those things and choose not to do them. Right, because this is a commentary on the free will of man. Yeah, exactly, which might have been more debatable, I guess, back then. I mean, it's still a debate now, but maybe it was more debated amongst theological circles, right? All that said, though, the beauty is that we see this emphasized over and over again in these following chapters in many different ways, and I think it's like very the sentiment, is very sincere in how Tim Schill like there's not an example of Tim Schill in this book that I feel is cheap or shallow, and with that the rest of the conversation just to kind of hit on these other things that recur.

42:13 You know, samuel essentially confronts Adam and says, like, tells Adam, you know, from a place of experience and empathy, that, like, the best way to move on and to let go of these bad memories or these fabricated fictional memories, is to replace them with the good ones. Um, even if the good memories are fabricated, um, like whatever like, but you have to let go of the pain, you have to let go of the loss, and you have to accept, like the natural human process is for memories and new experiences to replace old ones. Um, and that the issue with holding onto this figment or fantasy of a loved one after they are gone, whether they died or whether you lost them because they left.

43:00 You is a is a very dangerous thing and it's actually like, it's like a sin, the way Samuel describes it. You know he says I can see it in you. You have you hold on to her. Still, she comes to you in the night and Adam's like getting angry. He's like what do you, what do you know? Like, get away from me. He's like I know it because God blessed me and like God blessed my wife. But it's not fair to Liza how she's come to me in the nights and she is not Liza, right, it's whoever this loss was before he came to America. And it's like, and I've prayed and I've wished that Liza had her own imaginary like partner come to her. But I know it's not true and I know she's only to me and I know it's unfair that I I still have this fabricated um, imagine imagination, fantasy about who she would be here now with me and it's like.

43:54 It is very interesting because most people, I think, just freely fantasize and they don't think at all about like. Is that even a good thing to do? Like, is it a good thing to be nostalgic and fantastical in your memories of a loved one. Um, maybe sometimes it is harmless, right to have a little bit of nostalgia and focus on things, but it does prevent you from being present with your current loved ones, right, and it I think it can make you resentful. Um, but, uh, what are your kind of, your thoughts on that? You know, in that kind of back and forth argument cause I think it comes up later on a couple of times too, but I'm just curious to it's like what are your thoughts on? like that, that, uh, postulation, you know, I think that the cause, you know I, and it never is spelled out for us what Samuel's, you know, like past is, but we get little hints at it and it kind of suggests that he had his own Kathy, of sorts.

44:53 It was either Kathy or like another just woman who died over there or something. You know what? I mean, it's hard to tell if she left him, or if she died, right. And so then the because in his, because I feel like a big part of Samuel's you know connection to Adam for himself is seeing himself in Adam and literally these little parts of it and saying like, is being able to say I've been through this before and I can help you. And so the we get a little bit of you know samuel's past revealed here even further. And I think that it is dangerous to you know, play out too many things in your mind of what could have been, you know, and like the word fantasizing has been like, very like sexually hijacked, right, you know, and and and and Samuel is speaking to that in this case as well.

45:55 But also there's like, but he's not just being that, he's speaking also to just, you know, the what could have been the one who got away, what would my life be like now if I had done this, that or the other? And I think lots of people struggle with that and you know, thinking about, you know, I think that can be deadly to a marriage, deadly to a marriage and deadly to just a man's soul, like to be like even you know, oh, I should have, you know, you know, like one very common one. Lots of guys hold on to you talk to like a 80 year old guy who's like I regret I never served in the military oh sure, yeah, you know like that one's, that's like. You know, like that one, that one like is like things like that, you know I think of where my life could be.

46:37 Or you know, man, I just regretting, you know, and you can even in some cases, like, as you find yourself getting into, like, as a marriage progresses and a family grows and you've now like lost all of your autonomy as a man. You're like there's a, there's a thing for you to fantasize, just like I just want, like, just like I want to just be a bar hopping on my motorcycle riding, riding through the night, you know, just like. You know, like the flicking cigarettes or whatever like that, Like you can have these like sort of like. I want to be lonely. Yeah, exactly Exactly. You know it's like, and and that's the part of fantasizing, is that it is fantasy.

47:22 Yeah. It's like, and so you take the good part, like you. You have these what could have been, what's not, and then like to your joke just now, which is like ultimately, that's not what you want ultimately, that man's crying alone in a cockroach yeah, in a motel exactly, feeling guilt about leaving his children no, yeah exactly, or having never had any of that yeah and we'll see regrets like that in other characters as we get like part four and like the um, this whole concept of Timshel too, I think, like, while you were saying that the, the translation has been stretched in this particular verse, I think that it is the, the condition of man and his free will and his manifest destiny, you know, part of that too, is like there's, there's, you know, destiny is just there's nothing you can do about it.

48:12 That's what you're destined for. Yeah, manifest destiny is a potential future that you have to get to. Yeah, and you know, and manifest destiny being, like you know, a common theme in of writers in this time too. So you know, and this, and obviously that's like a whole whatever you know, take your junior year lit class. You talk about that for, like, you know, for 18 weeks, but sure, the we get into this thing where they're calling the choice temporal, this thing that is, you know you have to choose and like, just like how samuel chose to make his life um a one way and will is choosing to make his life another way.

48:54 You know, like, we have these, these choices that that come up and the and it's, it's, and it goes beyond good and evil into. Also, just like you have the free will to choose your life, because um steinbeck, throughout the book, has also been speaking of you know these past times, these future times that we're moving into or out of, and you have characters like will, who is. You know, um, who's going after making the money. And then you have guys like samuel who's going after making a living you know, and that's a concept we'll get heavily into in part four is this thing that is, you know, uh you know you can, you know, make, make money, or you can make a make living or make a life, you know type of thing, and so, um, the the Timshel concept has been running through this entire book so far, and if you go for a reread you'll pick up on it throughout the first two parts, but then it's in part three that it's revealed more clearly to us and we get to see it throughout the rest of the story yeah, and I think you know to anyone out there who's not a believer or whatever, or I don't know um, I do think like not again, this is not me trying to like recruit anyone, but like, if you want to understand christianity, this is christianity and I think it's very like.

50:17 Closest core is like a lot of people I know get wrapped up in a lot of other stuff, but like I think the big, like the clearest argument for like Christianity and like what it believes is like you have a choice. You can choose to accept like, like you can choose to accept forgiveness. You can choose to accept excuse me, you know Jesus as your Lord and Savior or you can choose not to. But there is no like you go to hell because like, there's no like I'm. I know there's a lot of philosophies here, right, but I'm not saying like. What I'm saying is it's not like you go to hell regardless of what you want to do. You don't go to hell regardless of what you want to do.

50:57 I don't like I'm, I'm saying like it is a manifested destiny Right of like based on what you choose and want to do. Uh, that choice is what you will manifest in the, in this life, um, and the thou mayest choose to overcome sin, thou mayest choose to accept these things. Those are the predications for like, every, like everything in the old testament, in the new testament, and like it ultimately boils down to like, over and over in Jesus's teachings. Like the most simplest you can make it as. Like asking it will be given to you. Like seeking you will find knocking the door shall be open.

51:38 Open, um, and he just boils it down Like if you choose me, then this is what you receive. If you do not choose me, and I think so many people think like, well, it's not a choice. It's like I've just I'm born and I'm either going to hell or I'm not, or I have no control over my sinful nature, um, and so like, I think, like that's, like I don't know, like to me, it's like it was one of those moments of like wow. This is a very life-changing book because I feel like the perspective is very beautiful, the examples are very like, real and relatable, and it helps me actively, just continually, think about my faith and my walk with God. And am I choosing to honor God and walk with God today, and am I making an active choice, or am I passively just letting sin slip into my life.

52:27 Right um what were you gonna? say on that, yeah, you know, and I'd say like it's all the, and then there's like there is a whole, nother deeper layer to what you're saying also, which is the. I know you believe this, but is the like the way that this is not to be confused? I was clear around. What you're saying is like not to be confused with binary action results in your eternal standing? Yes, because it's not two scales. Right that we're that that we're walking through now. There, you know, and so if we get into like, a like, a conversation, like following Christ and and, uh, salvation, there is like.

53:10 I think there's a choice like there's not. Like you know there's and and that comes with lots of like what you're saying is like there's. You continually have to um, put forward that there is effort to be put forward to continue to follow, but like it's not all added up on the last day, but then but. But to bring that to like us here and now. Mankind on the earth today is. We live in a here. Your life as a, as a physical being, is binary in that, yeah, your, your choices. It's one or the way like it's always going to be one or the other and you're, and you're like, your outcome in life um is going to be, your outcome in this is going to be your outcome in this life will be heavily, heavily influenced by those binary choices.

53:52 Right, right, right, because I'm speaking to, I agree, I'm just I'm just hype manning it bro, yeah because there's, like we believe in, a grace factor too which is also interesting too, because in this it's even spoken to here Lee speaks to it, where he says you, you know he says for in his weakness and in filth and his murder, in the murder of his brother, he still has the great choice. So it's like there's even some, you know you could speak to a grace aspect here too, of like going forward, you still get the choice. So, even even after this, that and the others happened, and he just named all these these things that that, should you know, discount you from a future.

54:33 Well, I think the again not going to spoil it before you know, in case no one's at part four yet who's listening to this but the ultimate example of Tim Schull in the book is a choice of grace and mercy. Right, it's? It's not a do I sin or do I not sin? It's do I forgive, do I pardon? Do? I bless right um and so, uh, that said, um, I do love this like, just like jaw-dropped samuel moment here, where Samuel is just talking about his old ass horse, yeah, doxology, and he's got flat heel like a flat hoofed.

55:16 He's got a mean temper. He'd probably kick Samuel after all these years of Samuel nursing him. Samuel grounds up meal. He can't even feed doxology straw because doxology ain't got no teeth and so samuel has to feed him by hand, just ground up meal for him to like gum on and suck down. And still this horse is alive at 33, kicking, pulling samuel along. And, uh, adam makes this comment of like why not just put the horse out of its misery? And samuel's like, really, adam, you'd kill this animal if it was in your, if this was your horse, you kill it.

55:58 And adam's like, yeah, I would have killed it years ago. Yeah, like, look at its miserable existence. It's, it was. Like, well, it doesn't seem all that miserable to him and, like you could see, I like it. The weird thing is like lee's our surrogate here. Lee is like seeing what's happening and starting to feel the temperature rise, because he knows what samuel's alluding to and what sam and like adam's just unaware. And what sam Samuel's saying is Adam, you are this horse. Yeah, you are living a miserable existence for the last 10 years and anyone in their right mind would think someone put this man out of his misery because he's never going to do anything. He's never going to do anything with his farm, his money, he's not a father, you know.

56:42 He's never moving on. And so Samuel says you know, adam, suppose I had medicine that could heal you, but it could either kill you or heal you. It's a flip of a coin. Would you take it? And Adam's like well, what kind of medicine? He's like no, it doesn't matter what kind, it's just medicine that will either kill you or heal you. Would you want it? And Adam's like well, I guess if I was sick I'd want it. Yeah, and so samuel gives him the medicine and samuel, kind of quote unquote, puts him out of his misery. Right, because he samuel's like it could kill you, it could kill adam in his idea. He's like this could be the thing I say that drives adam to take his own life.

57:23 Or, you know, just do something reckless that gets him killed. And he says Adam, kathy is chief whore of a whore house that is the most depraved whore house of all time of all time, like there. Everyone knows in California that East of California there's not a more depraved whore house Uh and uh. East of california there's not a more depraved whorehouse, uh and uh. She literally takes pieces from the whores who serve her so they can never be anything again but whores. And you know, it's just like. Adam is angry, gobsmacked, he's like lee, and lee says this hilarious line, because it's not like said.

58:06 Adam raises his hands to Lee, but Lee says I'm not the solution, I'm not the medicine. Like because he's afraid Adam's going to start wailing on him to like vent and like it's just one of those hilarious moments. But like he's like, lee, did you know about this? He's like I did and I wish I should have told you. And so Adam storms off angry, just literally running over a hill in the dark. Yeah, and samuel's like you know, lee. If you had not told me about tim shull, I would have chosen to sin, I would have chosen to let sin fester and I would have chosen to shirk away from the goodness of telling Adam the truth, the truth he deserves.

58:51 But because of what you said in that philosophy, it's stirred in me and, just like you said, when those old, crippled Chinese philosophers heard of this, it gave them life. Life, oh, even in my old age I may live and win over sin. Even at the end of my life, I can still choose To have victory over sin, to choose to be good. Samuel says it's done the same thing to me and I go off now Like happy man. It's his final great act. Yeah, it's his final great act and he waves off to Lee as Lee's waves off to him, and you know they part Um and the next chapter.

59:33 We find like it's what Two years. Yeah, something like that yeah. Um, samuel's died and Adam is going to the funeral on a train, um and uh, train um and uh it's. It's just interesting because now we get like adam's confrontation with kathy, um, and I think there's a really good uh parallel here that I just want to note on too um, we see that um, kathy repeatedly isn't capable of self-control when it comes to like people she can't get her hooks into, and when she's drinking, um, and when she has alcohol, she loses self-control.

1:00:16 She's overcome by fear of rejection, fear of not being able to manipulate someone, anger at them for not like uh submitting to her. Um, anger to their resistance, um, anger to the good of them, and she releases the meanest and nastiest version of herself. And even though, you know, I try to like to shirk away from drunkenness and encourage others to not get drunk, um, you know when adam is drunk, when adam's drinking, we see here that Adam is actually brave in his intoxication. A little liquid courage there. Yeah, the more he drinks. He's not only like, it's not only like he's brave, but he's in control.

1:00:57 He's cool headed, he's not afraid of harm to himself and, in fact, he's not retaliatory. He's gentle and patient, regardless of kind of the gravity of a situation. And that he, he seizes control of situations in himself while under the influence of alcohol and he chooses to overcome sin in this moment. And it's like the most, like it's the furthest you can get from Kathy, and it's both of them under the effects of alcohol. That gives them like a total different personality. Um, and I do think it's like that, like it is very intentional, right, I think it's a very intentional cain able moment of like.

1:01:37 The playing field is level, no one can be like. Well, the liquor made me angry, the liquor made me good. It's like it revealed your revealed yeah, revealed exactly who you are. Um, and it opened your eyes. Kathy sees oh, this is a different adam. I don't, I can't, control him. Adam sees like oh, this is kathy, this is what the world sees and what I couldn't see. Um, go ahead. Before I move on to tim shill parts. Yeah, and so you know, in this chapter we have the uh and I called it um samuel's dead, deadly remedy, you know, is because it's this could kill you, but it might be what you need. It's like chemo, like yeah, like, like this is like to kill the cancer.

1:02:19 Yeah, it's like it. This is, this is going to attack a thing inside of you and kill it and you might not come out the other side and you have to go through this crucible. And so, you know, samuel gives this gift to Adam and Adam coming into town for the funeral, and you know, and all this he gets, you know, he, he, he doesn't go home and he just, and it's, it's had to been brewing in him ever since he found out. Oh, you know, and you know like the dread when he's like gets to that bar Like I don't think he was I don't think he was excited or optimistic or hopeful at all Walking from Samuel's funeral.

1:02:59 You know what I mean. Like he's leaving Samuel's funeral and I think he's like I don't have the courage. Yeah, he's, he's lost his only counsel and he's just, you know. And to find out too, the fact that, like this person who, while he hadn't gotten over her for the last decade, um, to find out she's only a couple miles away this whole time, yeah, just like brutal and and and the life she's living too, and so yeah, it's one thing to be like I don't. I'm sorry to tell you this man, but she came on down on hard times and she's a whore now. It's like, no, she's like, she's donkey kong of whores, she's running the show like yep and she's over the hill yeah and so the uh, this, this deadly remedy that samuel gave him.

1:03:52 Now, like now, adam has to decide if he's gonna live or die from it. And he, he does, he goes forward and he, and he goes to see her, you know, for the first time in so long, and she reveals herself to him completely. And because we saw in part two where adam really um, you know, really, into part one and through part two, where adam had made this fake version of her and the the false things she'd put forward, he had eaten up and he just saw her as this ultimate thing on a huge pedestal, the greatest, and it was his, you know, pinnacle of a woman.

1:04:33 And now he goes into this depraved place and sees her for what she is, you know, and she's just like this spitting, angry, vile person. And this quote here is he was a liar and a hypocrite too. And as she spat out her words, that's what I hate. The liars, they're all liars, that's what it is. I love to show them up, I love to rub their noses in their own nastiness. And Adam's brows went up. Do you mean that in the whole world there's only evil and folly? And she says that's exactly what I mean.

1:05:14 And in this moment, adam has this epiphany and shift where the glass is shattered on his version of who she is, glasses shattered on his version of who she is, um and and um the. He finds freedom, you know, in this and and in this epiphany he then he responds to her. Later on he says you hate the good in them. And he finally realizes this person and who she is and her um, you know her key essence. And he, just when he says this you, you hate the good in them. It's as if he has concluded his reality, his forming, his reality and understanding of the real situation, what had happened, what was going on, and he's able to leave, you know, survived, the surviving, the deadly remedy.

1:06:07 And he even gets, he even gets physically jacked up no, that's why, yeah, like I think that was also part of the physical thing. I don't think, you know, samuel foresaw that right, but like that's certainly part of it. I realized in retrospect. I was like, oh, like samuel, maybe he did realize it and he was like man, she's, she's queen whore and she's got some like muscle yeah that probably going to jack him up if he goes in there too hot headed. And uh, yeah, adam gets kicked and beat, but, like, even the dude beating him was like I don't know, man, this guy seems like he's really not a threat at all. Like, what do you want me to do? And, uh, it was just like one of those things that, like, it was just like to see the henchmen overcome by, like Adam's character and choosing to make the best out of Tim Shull.

1:06:56 You know, yeah, it's a beautiful scene. It left me, though, man. It felt just like to me when, uh, charles is chasing adam down like I would. I like, legit, was wondering if adam was about to get bit by the viper and die back in and like die holding it. You know what I mean. Like I was, I was, I was like dude, she's so cunning. And like, when he's like I'm not drinking this until you drink all of it, I I was like good Cause, she could have poisoned it, oh yeah. And then, like I know she she mentioned she had the syringe of not morphine but something else that she could have used to inject him, and then she just could have her muscles stomp his head in Right and I was just like God, is Adam going to die here?

1:07:41 Yeah, what a martyr that. Yeah what a martyr. That'd be insane. and like what if she killed him and the boys never know like their evil, wicked mother killed their good father right and we had, and this scene was also just it's like skin crawling where we had she revealed herself to fay and kind of the nastiness of what she does. But then this is when we see all the pictures, full nastiness, yeah she's you know, she has all these pictures of, you know, depraved acts and using those blackmail senators and in all these people, and that's how she's making her money. You know, and and but, priest, I had this thought of, like she mentioned, once they come in here and they've had a had a bit of what we have to offer, like they can never leave, they can never leave, they can never leave, and I was thinking of the song Hotel California when she said that.

1:08:30 I was like this is the Hotel California. Yeah, dude, you can check in, but you're never allowed to walk out. Yep, yep, and you're just in there, and you're just in this eternal suffering. Well, we see that the only person who probably got the her hooks out of them is adam. There's no one else who gets the kathy's hooks out of them once they're in yeah, like you know, even, even charles it's hard to tell, you know, did he leave? You know which we're going to talk about here in a minute? But he left half of his inheritance, uh, to him, to kathy. Um, and was that insult? What a weird way of insulting kathy.

1:09:11 Maybe it was just his concern. Like a part of me wonders if he was like legit worried, like what if my boy, the only offspring I have, is with kathy? I should make sure that some money goes that direction? Or did like a part of obligation and guilt and evil just sit in him and he's like I should give her some yeah, or was it his final act of like that cruel punishment to his brother? you think it was out of cruelty to add him for going. I, or like you know just how like how we see Cal and Charles, both like they can't help but do something mean to their brother. Just how, like Charles final act in person with his brother was to sleep with his new wife, like and he couldn't deny that.

1:09:59 And like in the same sense of like that still hurts me so much. Like brooding over the years of like all right, you picked that lady, I'm giving half to her. Like he, like charles, knew they weren't together like, like, like, yeah, maybe he didn't know for a fact they weren't together anymore, but in his hearts of hearts he's like, yeah, you're, that's not lasting and I'm, and I'm sending it to her too, because he picked that, he picked her, and I'm sending it to both of them. and and we don't know it's. It's left to the you know I just don't want to. I want to believe in charles having an opportunity for tim shull you know I mean it's like I, just because I do see earlier, right, charles loves adam, right, and it's just so hard to imagine like that last spiteful moment, but I don't know.

1:10:47 Um, anyways, moving forward, um, adam survives that encounter with kathy, right, and uh, we get, like you know, some examples of tim shull from him. Um, showing grace, showing forgiveness, he doesn't excuse me, he doesn't even say a mean thing to kathy no, he's, he's just stone cold. He doesn't say you're a whore, your sons would never love you. Thank God you're gone because those boys have a better life than you could ever provide. He doesn't say anything jaded, anything hurtful. It's all very much like now I can forget you. I think that was insane, bro, when he said that I was like pumping my fist in the car.

1:11:31 Yeah. Because we've all been there. If you're a dude and you haven't been there, I hate to tell you, son, you're going to be there one day. You know what I mean? Yeah, there's a girl one day, whether it's your first crush in middle school, elementary school or like that chick who like breaks your heart in college, or you know god forbid, but like I hear about it all the time with divorces and stuff like there is gonna be a day where you're gonna think of a woman and you're gonna be like I can finally forget her and move on and I. I think it goes like I'll see them to be like close friends. Oh yeah, Like you Could definitely happen with the bros you unwisely chose.

1:12:13 You know poor friends and, like you know, or whatever it is, Guys are in romantic relationships, brotherly relationships, and then you find yourself going. I do not need that and this was painful, but now'm you've revealed your true self. I am free yep, yep, um, moving on, um, I do think it's interesting. The next chapter is really just Adam buying a car and the contrast between Adam and Will and how Adam thinks Will's mourning his dad. He's not, he's just thinking business, and it's kind of interesting.

1:12:54 I just thought it was. Like you know, you never know, like sometimes your friends and the people you went to go see and sat with to just speak a little bit of truth in their lives, sometimes that little bit of truth will make them more mournful and appreciative of you than your own family, right? Uh, just because they will realize they should, like you know, they have a better realization of, like I should have made more time with them because of how, you know, impactful they were. Um, adam, you know, confides in lee saying he wants to, you know, spend more time with his boys. I think Tim show moment. He's like cause he realized he says I've been a horrible father, yeah, I've been my own, yeah, and you guys, he's been just like Cyrus Yep, in his own way.

1:13:34 Yeah. And then Lee says I want to leave, they go be free and at my own bookstore. And, like you know, uh, adam makes a very honest but I don't think necessarily like mean spirit or anything like that, but he makes a very honest statement. He's like I wish you were a slave. For a moment there I found myself wishing you were a slave so I could deny you your right to leave. But he's like you know it's it's kind of been joking Cause he's like of course you can go whenever you want, like you've. You've always had the ability to go whenever you want. And then lee says this super sweet statement he's like, you know, like it's, I'm not as motivated as I once was to leave and I will stay for a little while to help you get acquainted with the boys.

1:14:15 But don't make me feel needed, adam, because it's very hard for a man to leave from a place where he feels needed. And you know, I thought that was like a very sweet statement of like don't take advantage of me, because if you make me feel needed here I'll stay. Yeah, you know, I mean it's kind of like he's like revealing, yeah he's like betraying his hand, uh-huh. um then, uh, chapter 27, we kind of get again into like, really developing characters of a and Cal. They're hunting this rabbit and we start seeing Cal slipping in. He's starting to like, manipulate and possess his brother with either promises of rewards or the idea of approval and appreciation from you know people who it matters, from you know.

1:15:05 He tells his brother like well, we can tell father and Lee that your arrow got it or you're the one who got the rabbit. It's like why would he say that If? If he isn't like the reason he's saying this, cause he's aware of his brother's desire for approval and he's aware that his brother currently is in his shadow and another little part of that is a power play like you're in my pocket and I'll reveal that it wasn't you. Yeah, yeah where it's just like I could hold it over you, even though everybody else will celebrate you. You'll know it was me yeah and I could possess you and like, I think that's like the danger, like we see immediately he's already yeah he's demonstrating, kathy, of like I want to possess you, I want to control you, you will do what I say, um, but then, uh, we see aaron's inability to accept that his loved ones can commit evil or maybe not just you know absolutely virtuous good.

1:16:05 Um, it's the same thing that plagued adam, I think you know, and he said he has this moment when, you know, uh, abra and cal kind of confront aaron about their, about his mom, and cal's like well, what if mom's not dead? What if dad lied, what if mom is alive and she ran away and, like aaron's just like does not compute like yeah and um, you know, I think it's, I think that is to be said. I think this is kind of something steinbeck doesn't outright say, but I think definitely is repeated on in this book. That is just as much of a choice as cal's is to not heed to tim shull. Like that is a choice to choose to deny what is good, which we find out later on through Lee's story, is like the truth and the truth there is beauty and goodness, even if it is a what does he say?

1:16:59 Not dangerous, it doesn't say horrid, maybe a terrible beauty. And it's like that idea of like. If you refuse to acknowledge the truth or tell someone the truth, you are denying the ability to learn and improve from the truth. If you give someone just falsities, there's nothing that can truly be improved, because it's being improved based off of a false premise which invalidates, uh, you know anything coming after it, um, and so I think, like I don't know, do you? I do, I'm open to you disagreeing, but I do think, like Aaron's inability to like, confront and deal with this is just like as dangerous as Adams, which ultimately is just as actually like quote, unquote sinful, as like choosing to do the evil thing yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think you know where I was describing aaron before, like I spoke to his like naivety, and that is also that's a downfall, you know.

1:18:03 And like there's like um, being innocent is not a sin, you know, quote unquote, like these, like you know, like being naive is not, you know, or being being innocent is not a crime. Being naive has you have, the onus is now on you in some ways, because, because the naive person has um chosen now to not see the facts in front of them. Yeah. The innocent person. You know there's nothing one way or the other for them. You know, just to make the choice. I agree, and so it's kind of like the ultimate example. This is so extreme, but the ultimate example is like Holocaust, denialism right, it's like, right, is there any benefit to that?

1:18:53 Like I think most people would agree. That's a, that's a sinful thing, right, right, like you're doing, you're doing something very harmful to do that. Now, like you know, this is, of course, the most like personal, simple version of this right right, and so I agree that you know they both are, you know, making their choices in, in where, and this is where you know steinbeck's, steinbeck's cain and abels aren't as cut and dry as biblical cain and abels. Yeah, you know, he puts more, um, puts more flesh and nuance to the characters and each of them has more, makes good choices and makes bad choices, whereas the account, the biblical account, is just a couple verses, fairly cut and dry.

1:19:41 Fourteen verses, right. But they're every man's story. 14 verses Right, but they're every man's story. And so this is where you know, cal wondering about the truth isn't his downfall, it's. You know. It comes later in this chapter where he, you know, is tricking his brother into, you know, with the love letter for Abra and all that, and he's not. You know he sets them both up and then he's like Lucy, with the football from the Peanuts. You know he's holding the football and he, just what brings him great joy is pulling the football out.

1:20:23 Yeah, it's so sinister, it's squirming. He enjoys watching squirming like, like charlie brown wouldn't, didn't even ask him to hold the football. So it's like, hey, hey, come over here. Well, it was kick this ball, you know and like, just to get to that part too. Um, you know, um, abra chooses to be good to the boys when she sees an opportunity to be good, rather than like. I can't tell you this. You know, to me, when I see the boys struggling with like no identity of a mother, they don't even know like what it's like they're like, I don't know wait, I don't remember. They're kind of like lost boys in in peter pan. Yeah, yeah, but it's like it is one of those things of like when people would like some kids would ask me they're like wait, where's your dad?

1:21:05 And I'd be like, uh, right, and you know. Eventually, like I came to like answers for that question, right, but like initially I was like I don't know and they're like, well, what's that? like I'm like I don't know right, it's, you know, living. It's like no paradigm for it, yeah, it's, uh, but like they're like. I remember, like the, the insecurity about answering that question when someone's like do you have a dad? Is like okay, now I have to surrender control. I have to either make up a lie and say yeah, I do, I do, he's just on vacation, or I have to, or I have to submit to the truth and say no, I don't, which gives them full control to either be kind or to make fun of Right Tim Scholl.

1:21:52 They now have the choice to be like oh what? Okay, right, you want to play tag, you want to play, you know whatever. Or they could be like you don't have a dad, yeah, you know, and like whatever. that evolves into which I can't repeat those words here, right right, because we'd get canceled, and also like something about revealing the truth that way and putting the onus on that person is actually disarmed, and for many people it does. It's so disarming right, it's like I don't know well here's a little example of it. In college we'd ride around in the car and ride around campus.

1:22:36 We roll down the windows. We see a freshman, you know, roll down the windows. The guy in the back seat yells out freshman. No, we do that too, but this one was um, hey, hey, excuse me, um, do you know where the library is oh yeah, that was a great one and they'd say, uh, that way, and you just go at nerd and then you drive off classic right, and so now this is like maybe two or three years later. So now we're like seniors and or out of college and we're driving by campus and it's kind of like old time's sake, like my buddy in the back just rolls down the window and like what's he doing and it's like he just like he sees this guy and it's not a freshman, it is a like a 30 year old man in college, but he's not in college.

1:23:23 Like a 30-year-old man in college. Yes, yes, but he's not in college. He's like briefcase briefs, like dress, shirt, walking like nice watch, walking down the road hey, excuse me, where's the library at? And the gentleman turns and just goes. You just take a right down, oak, and then you'll find it on your left, and then my buddy just opens his mouth and he goes thank you, sir. And then we drive off. And so this, like in the moment of this guy's, like um, just authentic, genuine, answering the question disarmed he was he, disarmed the bully. You know, it was like I can't I, if I I do this, I can't do this.

1:24:09 I'm an idiot. You know, right here. You know it's like and so that's my that. Just that little story came to my head. That's the. You can disarm with the truth in that way, tim Scholl. But anyways, yeah. And so I think, like we see Abra choose, you know she chooses to be good rather than harass the boys, rather than tease them, rather be like well, she could have run away and she could have be a whore, or be like I heard about a whore who left her boys and husband, and it could be your mom. You know what I mean. And then you're at the age, too, where you're like what's a? whore. You're like I hear that word and I don't get it. But she instead chooses Timshel. Thou mayest be now a mother to the motherless and Cal again fails his Timshel opportunity and weaponizes this.

1:24:58 He sees her desires and he sees her kindness and he sees her vulnerability now in choosing to be kind to them in their own. And he, just, he like. He literally just does the thing kids do, where, like you're like just hanging out at like a friend's house, like at their like graduation party, and they have that like one nephew or cousin, and he's just like looking at you and he's just like in that weird button-up shirt that's too tight, he's got like a little party hat on. He's just like he knows. He's like if I look at people long enough, adults get uncomfortable yeah, like that's just what cal's doing. You know what? I mean like it's, like it's awful, it's like it's such a mean thing to do yep, and it's his.

1:25:41 Any jealousy of his brother a little canon able action there where he's like the just jealousy of his brother, the favor of Abra and him, and they're kind of hitting it off and then he had to pull the football. Yeah, he's like. I immediately knew that he knew Abra preferred Aaron, because everyone always prefers Aaron with his nice light blonde hair and his boyish looks. His boyish looks, um, anyways, uh, going forward, adam takes a genuine interest in engaging with his children. Excuse me, but he lies about kathy to them and then lee tells us his origin story. So you know and again I don't want to get too wrapped down in this, but uh, and we could talk about whatever you want, pat, like I think lee's origin story is very powerful, um, but like I think just again, tim shull examples, like I said, there are 15 of them here or so but like adam lies to the children about their mother.

1:26:39 According to what we've seen, uh, what we learned from lee's story, what we've seen from Samuel, this is Adam failing To thou mayest. He's choosing to sin by lying to the children about their mother Rather than revealing the truth, and a lot of people got opinions about this. The internet's full of it. But we also see Adam choosing to Fulfill Timshel and thou mayest choose not to sin by taking an active, uncomfortable step into engaging the boys and choosing to be a father now and be present, and so it's kind of weird, it's like I mean, is it the wrong choice?

1:27:20 Personally, you know we have the hindsight 2020 bias but, like you know, in the moment, I remember thinking like, ah, this was the moment. This is the moment you should have been honest with them about their mother. You didn't have to say she was a whore, but you should have been like you know what she did, leave. I don't think she's dead and, uh, you can't go see her. Yeah, you know what I mean yeah I think and like I think, that's like the opportunity here yeah, and you know, the thing going on here too is also the fact that adam, for the past 10 years, for his children's lifetime, has not had to confront anything one way or the other. And so now and this happens like, uh, like a petty prime example this is is my name is Earl.

1:28:07 Remember that show? I loved that show, so you know the whole premise of the show is he's redeeming all the bad things he ever did, right? He's going and trying to redeem, he's everything he messed up. He's trying to go fix, but then it always leads to more chaos in his life. Yeah, he almost always makes it worse, right, chaos in his life. Yeah, he almost always makes it worse, right. And so this is that in adam. Adam has been living in nothingness, and now that he's, he's stepping out into being something and living in in the light. But that means all the others. That has come to light too. But now it's but. But you will be confronted with it now. You would never been confronted with it if you just were the passive father who never spoke about anything ever.

1:28:49 Yeah, it's like the concept of like oh father, you're approaching me, You're engaging with me, you are approachable now. Well, I've always had this question about mother. Exactly, and it's just like of course they're going to ask you the first thing that's on their priority list Exactly. And so now he's, you know, as he's trying to like, you know he's free of this lady, he's moving forward, he's excited about life, he wants to engage his kids, but it's hard and that's that I think you know. I don't know if that's if steinbeck was thinking into that or not, but just like that is true, I think. I think for people who are trying to, all right now we're, we're moving in the right direction here, okay, but just because you took that one step, it's going to keep coming and, like the truth, the truth comes out.

1:29:32 You know the phrase has been around for a while for a reason and uh, and in this case too, he delays it and delaying it uh, becomes festering and becomes astronomical and so, like the, he is making the right choices and at the same time, those right choices are bringing him to a place where he has to continue to make the right choices, and sometimes he's not and he has to. You know he falls back into the into. You know you have to lie or tell these stories. And you know the Lee's origin story. It kind of kind of came out of nowhere. To me, yeah dude, that was way left field yeah, but like I mean, I, I do understand, like I think it is timshel right, like it's both sides, um, and I think the lesson of it, like what he says his father said and speaking about it, is super powerful.

1:30:29 You know, like Lee would beg. Can you just tell a story this time where you and mother, you get to the mountain, you get to the upper meadows and she lives and I'm born and it becomes good, and his father would say there's no beauty in that, there's no beauty in the lies. The beauty is in the truth, even if it's a terrible beauty, because it allows us to learn and so, like, yeah, it's way out of left field, especially like a first-time listener or reader for it. But it's also, like I understand, like there has to be this, uh, absolute spectrum depravity because ultimately, like, if we're really thinking about it, like we're talking about, like I think the most closest approximation is like you've sinned all your life as a bad man, you're on your deathbed and you accept jesus christ as your lord and savior, how can you be saved?

1:31:22 Right, and it's like you do the most depraved thing. Or you know, you know, you know, like, you know, your, your reader. All right, I'm john steinbeck. I know my readers listening to tim shell, the concept of tim tim shull. We're getting some examples and the reader is like yeah, but come on, there's people who rape and murder. Like we really think they're capable of redeeming themselves and choosing good. They're just always going to be the most evil, despicable things, right, and like I think this is Steinbeck's way of being. Like here's a story of a character in the book who shows the full spectrum. Right. Like full depravity to full redemption. And is there a fault in Lee?

1:32:05 Can you think of one thing Lee did wrong? I can't think of one thing Lee did wrong. Yeah, he's a steady thing in there, you know, and he is the result of that depravity redeemed. Yeah, exactly that's what I'm saying Like if the most depraved people can be redeemed and like raise someone to be as good as Lee, then everyone can still choose, no matter how depraved they've been. That's the way I kind of see that story but no, yeah, and I think it's a and it's, it's a when Steinbeck does these asides in his book or also does these, these, these stories. It's like you know this little short story within a in the novel yeah um, he, it's packed, chocked full of, uh, the, what he's trying to tell you, you know, and the for lee and his.

1:33:02 And because when you're reading that story and you're listening to the whole thing, his and because when you're reading that story and you're listening to the whole thing, as the reader, you are lee asking the dad to tell the fake version. Yeah, you're like, because you hear about the, they're out building a cabin in the woods and they're gonna escape and be a family together. And you're like, yeah, that's gonna happen. I want that to happen but, like you should know, it's not gonna happen. But you've wanted it to up until the moment it doesn't. It went real blood meridian. It did, definitely did, like it was full send, for sure. And another example of Adam, as he's trying to, my name is Earl it forward, you know, when he, in the same same chapter, he's engaging his brother to come out With him but there's cost and consequence for your past and for lost Time yeah, I mean, but we do See.

1:33:56 I think the most powerful thing is like Adam chooses to operate In Timshel, he chooses to be good and he extends not just forgiveness but he outright says I love you. I've never been mad at you. I've always forgiven everything. I don't want you to think for a moment there's anything I'm mad about today. Please come out and visit. Yeah, I love you. I love you right like he really emphasizes it, but then at the same time, like, does that matter if charles never got to see it? I mean, like it does, I think, to the intention, I think it does too. But then there's also like, the, like the. It's too late, there's still a part of you that's like you're a hole in your heart, of like yeah, no yeah, and so he adam got to that place but he didn't actually get to give it to his brother yeah, because next chapter ish.

1:34:45 Uh, is it the next chapter or is a couple chapters later? um, it's the. It's the next chapter yeah, we find out that, like charles never writes back, why? Because he died a while ago and they just didn't have a next of kin address to reach out to adam about it, um, it, um, but uh, yeah, and it's, it's sad, you know, um, because we kind of we can see that like Adam's really distraught over it, and this idea of like, just when I've been waking up and realizing the man I should have been, and realizing my brother's warning and I should have had my brother here all along to help be a part of these boys' lives, you know, it's just like that realization comes with some bitterness, but I do think, like the main part of these chapters, though 29 and 30 and all that is like this quote here that you pulled out Cal saw the confusion and helplessness on Aaron's face and felt his power and it made him glad, um, and I kind of want you to talk about that.

1:35:52 Why? Why you got that one? Because, of course, another example of Timshel, another example of Cal choosing to sin but having an epiphany in the midst of the sin. Yeah and the uh, and, and one thing you know, the one thing also that I talked about briefly last time too, is like the what's in your nature piece, cause there's a couple of times it comes out throughout the book where people just say like, but at the same time they have their own nature, that they're set in Meanness, being passive, being kind, being cruel, merciful, being ambitious or being content.

1:36:38 Steinbeck says these people have an innate nature within them, but at the same time they have a choice. And so, you know, this is where Cal's you know inner, you know inner self is. You know he's. Perhaps the innate goodness recognizes wickedness, yeah yeah. Or like his innateness too, is also just like he didn't choose to be happy about this interaction, but he felt it in himself, this power. Like you know, he, he saw himself elevated above aaron. Because of this confusion, helplessness, he felt powerful. And then it made him glad and there was no like in this. In this instance, there wasn't even a there's not necessarily a choice, but this is just cal's nature, of which his.

1:37:25 Now he has to rebel against with his choices, right, and and because what's happening here is the kids are sent off to bed and cal says you know, I'm gonna go out there and listen to their what? Because they're talking about something important I don't know what it is, it's almost important, you know. And so, and aaron's like you can't do that, you know you're breaking dad's trust, and he's like I'm doing it anyways. And so that's where he says he saw the confusion and helplessness in Aaron's face and he felt powerful and it made him glad. So, in his uh, innateness that's what he felt he goes out there and he eavesdrops and he learns of, uh, the money and of Kathy, he, he hears about who his mom is, and while he's sitting in in the shadows listening to Lee and Adam talk, he learns the truth about his mother, and he learns about it cheaply, you know.

1:38:18 It wasn't the truth wasn't given to him, the truth he that he took it, you know. And so there's something about that too, where it's like he was, it's it's bastardized in the way that he attained this and, going forward throughout the book, he struggles with this because, he has the knowledge. He now has the knowledge of the tree and he has to. And it's not just the knowledge of the tree, but it's like the knowledge to punish or free Aaron Right In the way it's given right and and in the way it was attained, you know, in a, in the manner that it was. He is now, uh, uh, he's trapped by it. Now he's not freed by the truth, in this instance, he's actually caged by it.

1:39:02 And after this encounter, he then, you know, is out by himself. And this is the next quote where he's he says, dear lord, let me be like aaron. He says don't make me mean, I don't want to be, I don't want to be mean, I don't want to be lonely. Um, and so we see where, in that first line, in that first thing we quoted, was his nature. And then also we see his. Now he's making the choice too. He's like I don't want to be that way, I don't want to be like that. Yeah, his cognition. And it also is hearkening back to in part two, where we were talking about like the story of Cain and Abel is the story of man, where we were talking about like the story of Cain and Abel is the story of man.

1:39:46 And then, as Lee breaks it down, as he gets from one thing to the next, he boils it down to man has a fear of rejection and his Cal sees Aaron as accepted and he doesn't want to be mean and his final thought there is I don't want to be lonely. And so it is a fear of rejection which, like steinbeck's, running back to, which we do see only revealed when kathy's drunk is, that that's her. Like fear, also hers, yeah, yeah. Which part of me was wondering. I was philosophizing here. I was like wonder if kathy is considered incomplete and just because, like she didn't have, and like charles maybe is considered incomplete, they don't say it right, they don't, they never say like charles wasn't human.

1:40:32 But I just wonder if, like cal, is only aware of this because he has both kathy and charles in him. But the second thought too was I wonder if k Kathy would have had a moment like this in her childhood, if she had had a sibling. Like what? If she had seen, like the night she was getting ready to burn that house down and kill her parents, she had seen her sibling sister's eyes just full of fear and she had just been moved you know what I mean. Right, like just something, um, because it is one of those things of like, I don't know it's, it's interesting.

1:41:13 And it is interesting because, like, I think, like this prayer too comes after cal hears that, um, lee is planning on leaving, yeah, and it comes out of the fear of like, well, if lee leaves, aaron will just be dad's favorite and I will be alone I'll have no one, yeah because lee at least, gives me like time and attention. Um, and so all I said it did make me think for a while like kathy now is supposed to be beyond redemption, like she really is supposed to be beyond redemption. Maybe, you know, at this point, when I was reading, I was like maybe something her children could do, maybe something the boys do redeems her. But I doubt it right.

1:41:54 Um, however, and I I doubt it, not because I don't believe people can be redeemed, I doubt it because I doubt that steinbeck's intentions the way kathy, the way the character has been set up yeah, kathy serves a purpose. Um, and I think, like here though I did, I was like, oh dude. But like if kathy had had a little sister, little brother like kathy might have never come to exist and what she is now. You know she might just become a normal person in society, maybe a little bit of like a not nice lady but like for the most part, decent. Um, but anyways, um, yeah, so that was kind of what I got out of this chapter.

1:42:35 You know, like cal is a full person and we're seeing sides of both charles and kathy in him, but we're also seeing like a, like a, some kind of cognitive reckoning, recognition between the two. And then we see that Adam is. I just kind of thought this was interesting. Like Adam is forced to live out Samuel's final proposition and challenge when he hears Charles is dead. He must now accept that the only family he's got left is these boys and Lee and he has to choose to like live out life with them rather than live in the past. And like I can't remember exactly how it was phrased in the book, but it was pretty much like almost a callback to the couple of chapters ago when Samuel was like you got to move on, you got to let those memories get replaced.

1:43:23 And like Adam literally has that epiphany moment with his boys and lee. He's like, oh, this is, this is my whole world, these three dudes, it's me and the boys. Yeah, but like I thought that was really key, um good callback for sure. And one thing I can't remember. If I can't remember two things, one would be if we talked about this on the last time we spoke, but um, and I don't remember if it's in the first encounter he has with kathy or in the second one that we're about to get to. That she says she, she tells him that she slept with charles. I think it's in that first one, the first one, yeah, so that's one thing we got. So she also reveals to him that you know she slept with his brother and he takes it rather well and he's like what's interesting too is he.

1:44:07 He leaves there too now, not knowing she's planning a seat of doubt of his sons and so he's like, basically, the math is this she had sex with charles one time and she had at. She had sex with adam one time and she got pregnant and had babies. So there is like the seed of doubt is in there for, like who, if those are his kids and the um, as adam leaves, this is when he also, he continues to engage, he's engaging his kids, so he, like he completely walks away from that. But one thing, that one like theory I have, and I wonder and i't looked into if other people think this too is like it's mentioned in part two, when the babies were born you know they're both born in their own, you know they had, they each were born in their own birth sac.

1:44:58 So it's like the I mean they're definitely two separate eggs Because they're not identical twins. So they're fraternal. And then did we talk about this last time on the podcast. Did we talk about it off the podcast? That there is. I don't think we said it on the podcast but this is real. This happens all the time. Where one egg is fertilized by one dad, another egg is fertilized by another dad. It is I mean, it does happen all the time fertilized by one dad. Yeah, another egg is fertilized by another dad. Yeah, it is. I mean it doesn't happen all the time, but it happens enough that we have a specific scientific condition that recognizes it. And it happens like frequently, right so it is, it is possible that, like aaron is adam's kid and, and you know, and cal is charles kid yeah, you know, totally possible and and so you know and the only reason I say this is the fact that I don't know if Steinbeck took the time to he's intentional with his words he took the time to write that when Samuel was delivering them he noticed they were born in separate sex.

1:45:57 If he was just saying these two kids are different, or if he was saying also like these two could be different, you know. So I don't know these two from separate. These could be different, you know. So I don't know. I think it's left to the reader in a lot of cases, but this is where we see, you know, uh, also cow, you know, acting as kathy or charles would and not as like adam or you know a Aaron would, and so we have to. It's just one thing I was thinking about in there. And uh, you have this, this bit at the end here for, um, you know, for Adam being forced to live out Samuel's uh proposition and the when in now that Samuel lives on kind of like obi-wan kenobi like, yeah, uh, what's the phrase?

1:46:48 um, let me find the quote. I got it somewhere, I don't know where it's at, um, but um lee says, you know, uh, a little bit of him is in you, or he's like a little bit of samuel hamilton's at you and a little bit of him, I think, is in me. I think that's what it means to be immortal and it's like this idea of like like Sam, yeah, like I said earlier, you know his psyche effect on everyone around him. It's it, the psyche effect is for sure happening on Adam and I think it's like you know, in 32, 33, we'll see but I think it's happening to Tom, tom his son, as well and will in a way. But like it's clear like there is a theme of like, who you are in life lives on through those you touched whether good or bad, yeah, um, but uh, 31 here.

1:47:41 Uh is when adam's second time confronting kathy about the money. Um, and it's kind of funny cause, like we see Lee and it was weird being the whole time I was listening to like I never like really started thinking of Leah as just like the surrogate wife, the bro Right, like the like surrogate, like you're my bro but you're kind of my girlfriend because, like you do give me the wisdom of like bad decisions I'm about to do and, uh, I think we all knew that person in like college or high school or right, who like he was your bro, who's the voice of wisdom and Lee is the voice of wisdom here is like Adam, should I even bother telling you not like what to do with that money, because I'm pretty sure you're just going to go and give it to Kathy anyways.

1:48:22 And like I was like well, I think I am going gonna go give it to her because I guess that'd be the right thing to do. Yeah, and lee's, like I knew it like storms out, you know it's just like it was a very funny interaction because it was both positions were very masculine, but you could very much tell like lee was the voice of like what's the point, what's the purpose? This is not wise in like a safety perspective, right? And uh, adam's like well, I guess I mean, what would samuel hamilton do, you know? And it's kind of almost like a little bit of a samuel liza. Yeah, like allegory there, I feel like dichotomy, um, but uh, I guess, yeah, I think you know, adam goes there, he confronts kathy's like here.

1:49:05 She's like well, what are you up to? He's genuinely living out Tim Schull, man. He's like it's your money. There you go. And she's like there's some plot and I'm going to figure it out, I'm going to bring you down with it and I really wonder, like is it ever expressly stated if she redeems the money or not? I don't know if it's ever clarified if she ever got her portion of the inheritance. I think she did. Okay, you know, I think she did. And it's just like the. And because, similarly to like, we see the interaction between, uh, charles and adam taking cyrus's inheritance. Like adam just has a very cut and dry opinion of it.

1:49:45 He's like for right or wrong, in either case, he's just like it. The, the note says yeah, it's to us, so we're taking it. And then like in this case, with charles, good, leaving the money's. Like says 50, 50 split. That is what I'm doing now, you know. And also, and then, and I wonder too, could assume too like part of it being like the way that Charles was so apprehensive to take Cyrus's money. And he's like are you sure we can do this? You know he could. Also, adam could be living out like Charles's wishes. Now, um, in the same sense of just being like, like, this time I can do it exactly right, like, whereas, like before, that that previous inheritance was wrongly earned.

1:50:33 Charles is Charles, is he sent on to to? Adam was like pretty much worked off the you know, sweat of his brow and breaking rocks and growing more stuff, right. And so it was like he's just like this is the thing to do, we're rocks and growing more stuff right. So it's like he's just like this is the thing to do, like we're giving it out this way, and I, I do. I love the interaction where he just goes in there because he's still, he's so freed from kathy. He's just like here's he's like take your money. Bitch exactly. Sorry he doesn't call her bitch, because that would be failing. Yeah, he's like here's your money and this is so matter of fact about it and he just like he doesn't care about money. He never has really cared about money he's.

1:51:15 He spent a life, a part of his life, just being a vagabond like money's, not a driver for adam, yeah you know. And so he's freed from money too, and and whereas kathy's not free, for that's her only goal, yeah, and she doesn't even know why. She's just like I'm just going to make money until I make money until it's enough to do the thing. But she doesn't even know the thing. Yeah, and she kind of talks about the thing, but she really doesn't. She never does it. Yeah yeah, she really doesn't know what the thing is. And so um. Adam's actions are just so antithetical to kathy's essence that she has no paradigm with which to understand what's happening. It just does not compute. And when he leaves her with the money, it just leaves her shaking, you know, and like she, she just knows there has to be an angle, there has to be.

1:52:01 And then we see people like this in our lives, I feel like, who are like they like kind of always too good to be true. What's the angle here? But people who have that reaction is because they would never do such a thing, like they would never be generous in that way or just played by the rules in that way, and they just cannot comprehend it. And the notes I wrote when I was reading the this book and I said I said sometimes the best trick is no trick at all and it's just like, yeah, and the other note I put was just keeping coals on your enemy's head was one I thought too. It just was like the best way for Adam to win in this situation is by doing exactly what's right.

1:52:43 Charles said give half here, give half there. He went and did it. And now this lady has to live with the wandering. What's the angle? What's the deal? How's he trapping me? What's going to happen? And there's nothing coming. There's nothing happening, and Adam doesn't have to live with any of that, he just walks away. Yeah, it definitely feels like the first crack in her foundation, like he just walks away. Yeah, it definitely feels like the first crack in her foundation. Like the first interaction with adam confronting her feels like she was able to rebuff it. This one feels like shaken like, and it it does feel like the first time, because here's also the thing I noticed is like adam denying kate or kathy is the first time good wins in the book.

1:53:27 Like the whole first half of the book is like not good never wins. Being good never wins. It's always victim to evil. And now twice adam has succeeded in faultlessly being good and kathy has lost both battles and like you could see it shaking the foundation of this, this person whose whole life is based on being evil um, and anyways, it kind of pushes into part four a little bit. But from here, like she's, this is when she's after this point, that's when she starts to have physical decline to her hands are hurting her. You know, these things are going on. She's, she's paranoid about her past, like you know.

1:54:11 So from here on, it is like you said, it's it's the downfall of her story. There's just like this is it's a slow decline, but like from here on, like she has no more rise to power um, I want you to do our final chapters here, 32 and 33, because this was an odd thing that I think again was like another. I do think this is its own contained Cain and Abel story, this ballad of Tom and Desi, when Tom is, I think, partly a Cain, desi's partly an Abel. I don't think it's a perfect narrative. I do think it is timshel and I do think excuse me, it is to show on a brief flip side in order to prepare us for part four.

1:55:02 I do think, like I do think these two chapters are just basically to say like, just because you choose to do good does not mean there will be good outcomes, and I do think that's preparing us to understand, like what happens in part four of, like people do good things in part four, they don't always get a good outcome Right and sometimes just bad things happen in life, and life is that's what happens in life. Life is got bad things that occur. So but please, please, uh, give us the ballad of tom and desi. Yeah, so, like we said when we were opening up, tom embodies the social butterfly aspect. That was Sam Hamilton and these two.

1:55:51 They decide to move back to the farm. Well, tom's been at the farm, but Desi, you know, she closes up her dress shop Business has kind of dried up because dresses have become easier to make, manufactured by manufacturing like the, the manufacturing industry in america is booming and so people aren't coming to. You know, get a custom dress anymore, which before that was the talk of the town if you're getting a desi dress, so, and she, she wants to be back on the farm with tom and they are there and they're. You know they're dreaming about life and future and fun and having you know they're coming up with business ideas. They're running them by will and will tells them all their business ideas are trash and they'll never work.

1:56:36 Because they probably are, because Will's good at good at business ideas and he's he knows. He's just telling them how it is, but he's like there's potential Yeah's and there's some wisdom. he's right, there's a lot of naivety. Yeah, he's raining on their parade, you know, and these things and and uh, desi had had health struggles, you know, and ultimately, while they have a few good days or weeks on the farm, you know, desi's the. I couldn't figure out what the actual stomach issue was. It was appendix ultimately, from what I understand, when your appendix Bursts. It's a very similar thing of like the milky eyes and the poisoning. And does.

1:57:16 Was it salt or what did he Give her? So, like your appendix is part of your body that processes, you know those things, the minerals and all that and salt. I looked it up afterwards and they're like, yeah, if you drank a glass of salt water because you thought your stomach pain was poop or gas and you had a bloated appendix, your appendix would burst and you'd be so dehydrated from trying to process salt water that you would just lock up be done. So, yeah, yeah. So you know, what happens in this case is desi is sick on the couch and tom remembers an old family remedy that liza used to do, which was when he had tummy pain.

1:58:03 Give him this salt concoction and he gives it to her and you know, she'll probably be better in the morning. And desi had also been kind of hiding how bad her stuff had been, you know, and so he thinks he got a stomach ache. He's gonna make her feel better, you know, and the it ends in this kind of this traumatic way of he gives her the salt medicine concoction. It makes it way worse. He's riding off to find the doctor, but it's too late. It's way too late and the doctor calls him a fool for giving her this thing. So you gave her that, you fool, you know. Next thing, he knows his sister's dead.

1:58:44 Can you imagine, bro? Can you imagine like you're bringing your wife into the icu or something, or your sister you got a sister, yeah, and you tell the doc, like you, best intentions, you're pretty sure you did the right thing, yeah, and the doctor in the icu just looks at you while they're take grabbing your. You know, the uh gurney that your sister's on is like you, fool, fool you killed her. Yeah, and can you imagine the destitution you'd feel? No, I mean, I think I can a little. It'd be devastating, yeah, right. And so this results in Tom having kind of decided it's done, full psychosis breakdown, yeah, and he can't forgive himself for this thing.

1:59:28 He sees himself as the one who caused her death and he takes his life and the part of this as a conclusion to part four, or part, because conclusion to part three, leading into part four, is steinbeck is using this story in multi-layered ways. He is using it as a temporal example of, you know, making, decisions making, and I'll get into that in a second too. But then one thing he's using too is, as he's done, as he breaks up, as he's moved through different parts of this book. He does use examples to move us through history and, like the times, of what's going on. And so you know it's a part of this, is a metaphor for the changing times in America where you have you have, will you know successful businessman, always looking for the angle of benefit through this disciplined pragmatism, and he is a picture of just American progress at the time and contrasting this Selling the automobile Exactly Selling automobiles.

2:00:29 He doesn't even know how they work. He doesn't know how they run, but he's selling them and he's selling a lot of them and his. You know Tom and Desi, who are this kind of the parts of Samuel we were talking about, the dreamer and the person who everybody wants to be around and gather around and be relational with. These two people you know who are, they're content, you know, they have a content nature for simple life with family on the ranch. You know the ranch, you know, and so they're contrasting these two individuals and where you have um, the america's moving away from content family on the farm to.

2:01:13 you know this american progress and eventually there'll be suburbs everywhere, in salinas exactly exactly, and so, you know, and tom's ignorance ultimately kills his sister, um, and that can be seen, as you know, and Tom's ignorance ultimately kills his sister, and that can be seen, as you know, also a reflection of America moving from like traditional time into more like scientific, tech based age, where you have, like, you know, he was just trying to use this down home remedy, he was doing his best with what he could, and old ways are dying and that's and that's not the way to do it. Yeah, you know, and so, um, you know his intention, you know, gives rise to both their demise ultimately.

2:01:55 So you can see that example, too, of like the old, traditional america falling by the wayside with of their intentions of the time also being what ultimately, um, takes them out and um, one thing that I did like about this was the way that that well, I'd say I I did think that the way that steinbeck wrote tom's suicide was very much like the same way that he wrote charles's letter to adam. Yeah, where it is this like very gripping um possessed yeah, it's just a seat and he's. He's explaining stuff on the on the wall. It's like you just have to read it where you get fully drawn into it. It's brought alive again he's.

2:02:36 He hears the ghost of his father yeah like samuel's ghost touches tom in this moment. And be like you. If you're gonna do it, you make it as easy on your mother as possible. Oh yeah, and that was like I thought that was so heavy, like. I was. I was really moved by that. I was like, probably something that Samuel would say to a man who's planning to kill himself. Yeah, make it as easy as you can on your loved ones, if your mind's made up. And he just the note to his mom. I bonked my head on a horse like on a horse ride. Well, he doesn't even say he's like I love this horse, I love this horse, this horse is great, I bought this horse, it's a great horse. And then he writes the letter to Will. Oh, yep, yep, that's right Saying no matter what you tell mom, I got my head kicked in by the horse.

2:03:29 Yeah, no matter what. Yeah, you don't tell her the truth. Yeah, and then he shoots himself. Yep, and that's the conclusion of, you know, part three. And you know, tom was not evil. He did not. He wasn't ill intended, didn't have an evil bone in his body right and, and he was even, he was trying to help and do the right thing for his sister, who he like, he loved, he like loved her dearly. And so the the timshel analogy and process here is kind of turned inside out. It's kind of ugly and on its head where his free will, his choice, resulted in the death of his sister and then his free will and his choice results in him, you know, taking his own life. And so the steinbeck kind of wraps up this part three with a kind of confused version of potential, whereas in like, when he first introduces, introduces it, it's kind of cut and dry, thou mayest do the good thing you know you can do the good or you can do the bad, and by the end he has this uh example of it, where it's convoluted what is the right thing?

2:04:37 did he do the right or wrong thing? I don't know, but what happened was sad and this is life. Yeah. Yeah, it's great, though. So I think it really sets it up for a slam dunk in the next section with part four and all that. So, ken, thanks for sticking with us. We know these are some long things, but these are some heavy concepts to discuss and you know, I truly believe there are concepts that you know if you listen and you, there are concepts that you know if you listen and you meditate on them and you ask yourself how they apply to yourself, they can have pretty big impacts on your life. Um, so we hope that you're enjoying your time, we hope that you're enjoying the book and, uh, please recommend it to people and recommend and share the podcast to people, um, just so that way they can also enjoy going through and breaking down these themes and parts.

2:05:29 Let us know your thoughts, leave comments and all that on the YouTubes, just so we know how you feel about the book and all that. But otherwise, thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us, pat. Till next time.