Dog-Eared Dialogues - East of Eden Part 2

0:02 I've been reading this book, oh yeah. Listen to a book. It's by this guy, jeremy Robinson, and the first book I listened to his on Audible was called Mind Bullet and it's so. It's very John Wick on like steroids, like comedic john wick, yeah, and follows this protagonist who's a world-class assassin, and the way he does it is he uses his mind to shrink a little bit of the target's brain matter inside into like a just a little vacuum pop and so no one can really track him down.

0:45 Yeah, because they're like how did this person die? And he usually like pops their brain and then he like makes it look like an accident, like a car accident or something. It was really like schlocky pulpy, yeah, very violent but like entertaining you know Not to be confused with Ronon jeremy's mouth bullet. Ron jeremy's mouth bullet, that's wrong. He's a old-time porn star. Oh sorry, it's like mouth bullet ron jeremy. Is that an allusion to his wiener? That's wrong, it's whatever you should feel bad. It's whatever you want. You should feel bad.

1:26 It's whatever you want it to be. Anyways, it was an okay book. But I saw that Jeremy Robinson had this huge he's written so many books and they have a lot of good reviews and I was just like, all right, I kind of want to see what else he's got to offer. And there's this book he wrote and I guess it was the first book he wrote, but he re-released it cause he had written originally written underneath the pen name. It's called Torment and I really didn't know like how to. I don't. I don't know how to explain it because it's really not at all like it's first initially described, but it is a very good horror book, I will say.

2:10 So far, context is this journalist is interviewing the US president when nukes launch and there's five minutes before the end of the continental US and there is just kind of like and there's five minutes before the end of the continental US and there is just kind of like a race against time, real craziness, and it just keeps on amping up and amping up and it's gotten to a point where I'm like I didn't see it going here, but I'm all about it, oh yeah, and it's way better than Mind Bullet. Now I'll say this If you're not versed in some of Christian theology, it might come off a little preachy, because I think he's trying to help explain without it just being a lot of in-narrative dialogue, apocalyptic theology, right, and so it's one of those things of like.

3:13 I think he's doing it in a good way. But I've seen a lot some like people just be disgruntled in the reviews. Like gosh, I didn't want it to preach at me like christian theology. I don't even think the guy's a christ Christian right, he's just using like the it's a setting yeah, like the whole the story that's been like referenced for thousands of years yeah, I'll say this the best way I can describe it. It started out as like World War 3, intense thriller oh my gosh, this is the end of the world. And then it became like, honestly like, uh, that one movie, the crazies and dante's inferno, it's pretty good, it's pretty spooky.

4:04 But anyways, all I said, welcome to the Make it Pat show where we're picking up part two of our dog-eared dialogues. Dog-eared dialogues is where we just talk to you all about a book we love, and it's not a review of the book, it's honestly just a breakdown of why we loved it the characters, the themes. And, yeah, you know, the assumption is that you've already read the book or familiar enough with it that you don't care about spoilers, and this is not going to be. You know, these episodes are never us trying to dance around the spoilers.

4:45 We're assuming you're right here with us, you know about the characters, you know about the themes and you get to kind of enjoy participating with us as we kind of recount it and hopefully, uh, you hear something new, um, but all that said, east of eden, big book, great book, uh, but it's in four parts and each part kind of deserves its own little moment in the sun. So we're here listening to some space banjo. Check him out on youtube. He makes great banjo music. This is all hand plucked by him and recorded and he's got a bunch of. He's got a celestial banjo. This is the haunting bigfoot banjo swampy, skunk, ape ambience.

5:30 I like it. Yeah, a lot of people in the comments are like I saw the title and I had to click. How could I not click? Oh yeah, um, but uh, anyways, check out space banjo. He's got good tunes to listen while you're reading a book, pat part two East of Eden. Let's just get right on into it. Do you want to do like what? Do you want to do A little bit of a recap? Because usually we like usually before for Blood Meridian we just had part one be characters, part two was themes. But now we're kind of each doing characters and themes from each part of the novel.

6:10 So how do you want to start us out? Yeah, I could do a brief overview of kind of some of the stuff we talked about in part one. In part one we introduced a lot of our characters and some of them aren't even in part two, so I'm not going to talk about them. But the main people you need to know about are there's two families that this story centers around. You have the Trask family and the Hamilton family, and the Trask family is kind of like and as the title goes, east of Eden. You know Steinbeck's playing with the age old story of Cain and Abel and good and evil and choosing good and evil.

6:53 This isn't an absolute, but the Trask family is almost like living out the curse over. The curse of man. The curse of man, you know, at original sin. You know, and the themes play into the Hamilton family as well, but the Hamilton family kind of is alongside the Trask family in their In the Trask family journey. The Hamiltons come in and out of it and are kind of their supporting characters in it as well.

7:36 As you know, like I think of Sam Hamilton kind of as like a Gandalf-y type. You know like he shows up when you need him with the wisdom you need and it's really like Melchizedekek. Yeah, he's a big old part of the story but also he's not the main character. So, and throughout this we see the hamiltons come in and out. So the two main families, the trask and the hamiltons and, um, basically up to this point we have adam trask. Adam Trask has gone from a boy in part one to now he's a man and he is married and he's taken his new wife, kathy, and we left it off with. The big cliffhanger was that Charles, adam's brother, slept with Kathy, the new wife.

8:25 Right before they leave to California and that's the last line of it. And it's not that they just sleep together. She outright tells Adam, I'm still too injured to make love to you. Let's consummate our marriage another night. He says that's fine, totally fine, doesn't pressure at all. She then drugs him so much that he is in a near coma so that she can then go to his brother and pressure him to have sex. Yes, and he, uh, he buckles, he does. And I just still. I still stand by that. Like I don't think anyone expected Charles to put up any effort, right, he buckles, he does.

9:09 I still stand by that. I don't think anyone expected Charles to put up any effort. Right. But I still respect that he put up at least three protests yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's as best as he gave it the old college try yeah. More than the college try. That's more than anyone ever tried in? college For sure, and so what we established last time was all right. Kathy is the embodiment of evil. She is an evil, manipulative person who uses manipulation to get what she wants. And we have the brothers Adam and Charles Trask, and they are at odds with one another, adam and Charles Trask, and they are at odds with one another. And so, as their story, together with Adam and Charles, it kind of comes to a close, we get into, we enter this part two.

10:08 We see a lot of. We see the hamiltons and trasks meet each other, we see a lot of stuff and we're going to get into all this, um, but first I think the biggest takeaways from part one is kathy bad. Adam and charles are at odds, like cain and abel and charles was actually physically marked. Yep, and so was kathy. Both were marked to be a type of cane right. They had like scars that could not be hidden on their foreheads. And then we have the Hamilton family and there was some setup about them in their history, but they have not yet intersected the Trask family as they will in part two.

10:58 Yeah, and I think thematically, you know, the beginning of the book really is just laying the ground work for, like biblical allegories. But I don't really think there's a like. I don't think the main theme of the book is quite yet introduced, right, but it's like it's setting you up so that way you're familiar. It's kind of like doing rehearsal, right, like hey, here's Cain and Abel, here's Cain and Abel, here's Cain and Abel, here's Cain and Abel, here's Cain and Abel. It's a little bit like Groundhog Day. Yeah, a little bit, but it's also just like again, yeah, I think it's just getting you comfortable with the concept of biblical allegories. Literally, the book East of Eden is this idea of we're just right outside of Eden, we're right next to paradise, yeah, and we're falling short right and uh.

11:50 So I think that's kind of. I think here, though, in part two is like the main meat and potatoes gets like alluded to, and then part three is where it really is like all right, and here's the theme from beginning to end, live down, right, and that's how it goes from like part three to part four is like the full exploration of the theme. But here in part two, we get the main theme presented, I believe, but before we do that, there's some new characters and stuff. For sure it, I believe, um, but before we do that, there's some new characters and stuff. So for sure, um, I uh. Yeah, I think you should uh introduce these newbies, for sure, and I think one one of the things to, to one way to consider part one is almost like and I guess I'm in, I'm in the lord of the rings analogies right now I'll try to be my last one, but it it's like the Hobbit it sets up the world, it sets up what's happening in the past, and now we're getting into the story.

12:51 The story. Yeah, We'll start to meet the main characters and these things right. So it's like now there's some groundwork there and so it's not until the end of part two we meet, um, aaron and caleb, who are babies. Hey, man, he doesn't go by, caleb, he doesn't. But that's what we'll get into, that, yeah, because, uh, yeah, aaron and caleb, they're the sons of adam trask the proper, the proper spelling of aaron too, not A-A-Ron Right, it's just A-Ron. And so Caleb does decide to go by Cal ongoing in the book, it doesn't come around until part three.

13:37 Yeah, yeah, I mean they literally they're not named until the last chapter of part two. This is true. But they're there and so I'm they're there, and so I'm kind of introducing them first, as they do get introduced in this part, but there's really not much to get into them at the moment as their babies will break them down into that final chapter of part two we have. Also, the new character is going to be kind of key in here is Faye the. This you know, I call her Fat Ditsy Whoremaster, which I think that's what she is. Yeah, there's no alluding to her ever being a whore herself. She just owned the whorehouse.

14:18 That was very um, what's the word Covivial? Covivial, there's a word there for that. It's the uh, it's familial, like you go to this whorehouse for uh for uh for country cooking yeah, you go so that way. A nice plump woman says, baby, it's so hard being in the 1900s and she holds you and you cry in her, in her arms, yeah, and then uh I think it's alluded to that like it was all. Like the sex was always just like a thing that occurred afterwards, right, like it was like a tripping of an accident of like you trip and stumble, roll down the hill and what you're most concerned about is like the rocks you hit.

15:04 But by the end of the hill you also find out you had sex exactly but. But it's like it was like one of those things that were like you don't go to phase primarily for sex, you go for the loving warmth and comfort of a woman who, it has a has a faux care about you yeah, yeah, it's kind of a yeah, a motherly care type thing and the part of that being too like and we'll get into this too where they do talk about there's, there's a couple whorehouses in the in the town and so, and there's, there's three very different styles and and, uh, you know of, you know of what men are going out looking for. Yeah, and phase is, the is the comfort, it's the peach pie right yep and so, um, she, we'll get into more of her and her.

15:54 Really, her story with kathy, um, and then all of hamilton comes up as well. She's one of sam hamilton's kids and she we briefly introduced her last time, but she has a good chunk in here where, um, really, you know, her story is kind of how she is an example of being, you know, antithetical to kathy and we'll break that down as we get into that. Chapter 16, 17, whichever one, that is, um and the, the most important character introduced in this, perhaps, debatably, the whole book, yeah, is a guy, debatably. Yeah, a guy named lee, and I am a Lee Dude.

16:38 I'm such a big fan of Lee I think that most people read this book. Yeah, how could you not love him? I think there's a character later on named Abra, and the love she has for Lee as a surrogate father figure, um, is, I think, the love that every reader has for lee. Like, oh my gosh, like this is. This man is a wonderful man like I would love to just be taught by him and instructed by him, for sure and we'll get into like. This book was written at a time with like when when Orientalism was popular.

17:18 Maybe some of the portrayals were not completely kosher by today's standards, and I'm going to talk about this as it was written at the time. So if anybody has a problem with that, that's okay, but I'm just talking about at the time. And so he's a Chinese-American, he's a house servant, he's educated, he's very private and reserved and also he's mysterious. He's kind of a little bit Mr Miyagi-ish in this. Yeah Right. So he, it's his, his past is aloof, he's aloof, he's aloof. and there is this, like orientalism, like uh mysticism behind, like what he knows a little bit, and not like magic or you know, it's like like all the way on, like far end, yeah it's not like he's like clapping his hands and going right exactly it's not anything like that, right, but it's just that he's.

18:15 You know, he is um, well, we may come to find out different, but he's an outsider to those in the story. Yeah, he is perceived as this outsider and so, um, and as you get to know him, he becomes a much more complex individual, but he's also a caring and loyal person as well, and so I think that, um, yeah, lee, two thumbs up for old lee. Um, I don't know if we get his first name I, I don't think. I think he's always lee, yeah, which is just, his name is lee. So yeah, I don't know yeah, well, I think, like I mean we got time for you to kind of dive in because like there's really not that many new characters that we have a lot to go over, right.

19:02 So like I think we could take the time to just go into the concepts of like Lee as a character, right, like, who is he? You know he's, he's this, you know you already said he's this Chinese American immigrant. But like he puts on a, he comes off as a very like new naive, he's a fob. Like fresh off the boat yeah. And he's like he uses. He speaks in Chinese pigeon like English Chinese English patois pigeon Right and he seems to be like almost like at first one, like he's introduced, like. Here's my immediate reaction. It's actually a character. My immediate reaction when he's introduced and like he's like the narrator Richard Poe is doing his like Chinese pigeon voice, I'm like, oh, this is way problematic.

19:53 Like, you get like it'd be very hard to write this character today, because it is. It's a very convincing portrayal. Me get tea for you mister? Yeah, you likey, you know it's like. Oh, mr Trask, yeah, it's just like oh, mr Trask, I will get chicken. Bad day for chicken, good day for us. And it's just, you're just like no, no way, no day for us. And it's just, you're just like no, right, no way, no way. This is like what this is like. There's no way they wrote this character just to be like the butt of a joke, right, and that's the beauty of lee, though, and I think john steinbeck is like. John steinbeck had this, like he saw the opportunity for, like a character that was very much poorly portrayed and often, you know, um, what's the word?

20:43 Um, like discarded, just as like a comedic relief character, right? Or you know, culturally not, a lot of people put a lot of probably, uh, stake into the word of Chinese immigrant servants and stuff like that, right, and just like immigrants in general back then, but a lot of people just wrote them off as being dumb or like, like, oh, that's just your chinese philosophy, like that. Here in america we have mathematics and you know science and like they, they kind of just like were written off and we find out, it's all an act, you know, and Lee is actually a very well-read, sophisticated, has no accent really, other than like a somewhat Northern California accent from you know where he was mostly raised in San Francisco.

21:34 Went to school, went to school, yeah, and he's a Presbyterian. Like he knows the word of God very well and he's reads it quite frequently. Uh, and he knows it so well that he's very confident in like making a lot of philosophical conversations of like scripture and the philosophies and scripture compared to the philosophies of like, uh, you know, china and like the chinese philosophies, um, and it's a, it's like I thought, I thought it was a very smart uh twist, you know, and it came very early on. Like it wasn't like we had to sit through chapters and chapters of like derogatory, uh, self-abasement of Lee acting a fool.

22:20 It was like we get introduced to him and we're like, oh my gosh, dude, there's no way they can have this character in the book the whole time. Right, because it would be like the. I'm trying to look a picture up on Google of it. I think Google is censoring me because I know I've seen these posters before. It's like the black he literally is described as like the black button up shirt he's got the chinese hat chinese hat with the, the q, with the q, which is the, the, you know, the, the long the long braid ponytail and you know, and like it would be, like the. I know I've seen these like political posters before, like propaganda posters, whereas, yeah, you know, like big, like buck tooth, you know like it's like and that's how steinbeck introduces him out the gate in order to, I think, also like, reveal him as a, as a, as human, you know, and like the, um, the.

23:14 I think a lot of authors do this and a lot of authors could do it well, and now you're not allowed to do it because you get canceled out the gate, which is by taking a person and shoving them into a caricature, especially upon introduction in the literature, and then revealing their who they truly are and showing them as human and as not othered, you can actually make bigger leaps and bounds than just starting off the gate. Like, um and like. They use the word uh in the book, they use the word chink quite a bit, um and like, if you didn't write that in the story, you would be um to be dishonest, dishonest to the time, yeah, to how people saw them.

24:10 And also and it also takes away from the power you have of revealing the real man behind it and so and maybe, maybe, people think other than that. But I think Mark Twain did this well with some characters as well. Like he, he used the N word he's the N word almost innocent in a way, to destroy the N word in a way you know, like and like so, like. There's certain things like that where you could, I think, that um. Steinbeck does a good job of using lee in this way. Um, if you, if uh people look up a chinese immigrant cartoon, um, there will be like a lot of these classic late 1800, 1900, uh, like newspaper caricatures and we still see this today, right With like political parties and stuff like that.

25:00 But you'll see kind of like the classic depiction of like this blue button-up jacket, the white pants with kind of like a apron of some kind and then like the black cap and the long queue, and it's very, you know it's clearly not depicting Chinese immigrants in a kind way q and it's very, you know it's clearly not depicting chinese immigrants in a kind way, um, but that is like how like lee dresses and that's an active choice that he makes to try to appear this way, um, which you know we'll get into thematically later on. But just a very um, a very like Well written character. And I'll be honest, dude, I was concerned At first when he revealed himself, cause I was like we've already gotten the reveal Of one character being incredibly Not who they are which is Kathy, and she has this, you know, she disguises herself but she's entirely evil and the narrator doesn't introduce Lee to us of like Lee was unlike Kathy.

26:03 He was born completely good evil, lacking in every fiber of his being. It's just like he's just introduced and we're allowed to make our assumptions. And then we find out little by little like, oh, like gosh, maybe me as the reader is a little like I shouldn't have made those assumptions either. Um, and it doesn't feel like a high gotcha by steinbeck, but it definitely feels like, oh, I'm just as surprised as samuel hamilton is. I was surprised, yeah, you know what I mean for sure. Um, it was believable. Uh, I don't know Any other characters that you kind of want to spend any time on before we get into themes. You know other people we mentioned last time.

26:45 You know their developments and stuff. Like yeah, I'm fine. I think we'll continue to keep getting into them as we go through kind of these themes. They'll break down too, you know. But you know, at this point Adam and Charles are men, they're grown men, um, they've been through a lot of life together and at this point you know, like the cain and abel story has died and in one sense, yeah, abel's not dead and this is kind of like or and even like, even in one sense in this part of this book, like abel is dead and now adam like in the biblical sense yeah is adam. Yeah, like the first man you know, and so the as, the as the wheel turns um and like, and, and charles's plight, fate is just kind of set.

27:33 Yeah, it's kind of like, but it's fitting. You know what I mean? It's like we never hear about what else happens to cain right, there's a group of set. Yeah, it's kind of like, but it's fitting. You know what I mean. It's like we never hear about what else happens to Cain. Right, there's a group of people called the Canaanites and they're not good people, that's all we know about it, like biblically, historically right, Mm-hmm, and so it's kind of like fitting that like we just get left on this note with, like Charles just being disgruntled and but staying in his little farm, you know? Um, all right, let's get into the themes here. So, um, jumping right into it, um, there's a lot of uh, continually building on themes that we talked about in part one, um, but I think that there's also quite a few that kind of group together chapter and maybe not necessarily uh, like three chapters aren't always the same about stuff.

28:24 So, um, there might be a little bit of repeat from part one here. But, um, early on, chapter 12 is again like this transitionary chapter. I think that is supposed to be a philosophical. It's like John Steinbeck, who's the narrator. He is essentially discussing how there's like this transition at the end of the 19th century, where the 1800s is coming to a close and everyone's excited and looking forward to the 1900s in a new century, the 1900s, in a new century, um, and they're eager to leave behind the idea, like, of the civil war and slavery and things like that.

29:05 But there's also, like this film of nostalgia that everybody always has. Every generation kind of gets this and it's this, it's how, like nostalgia allows us to gloss over bad times, because we're reminiscing about the good things that are gone and like we don't realize, like more often than not those good things aren't really gone, probably, but you're probably forgetting all the bad things that are also now, like in the past too, and go ahead. And it's just like his opening of part one, where he's talking about the salinas valley where, in a shorter version of this, as you know, you have these droughts and rainy years and the people forget about the good, and then the bad comes and they forget, they forget about the good.

29:53 Then, when the bad comes and ends, it's good again. They forget that times are ever bad. So he's in this beginning of part, the big, first chapter, part one, and first chapter of part two. He's speaking to the same condition in humans, and now on a broader scale, not just a people group, a small community in the salinas valley, but now like the whole of america. Um, as, as things change and as they move forward into these times I do, uh, like a the quote though, this quote from chapter 12. I'm gonna read it. Uh, it's him kind of summarizing the attitude.

30:36 Now, this isn't steinbeck's opinion of the 1900, I mean not 1900, the 1800s, uh, but it's just kind of summarizing the attitude. Now, this isn't Steinbeck's opinion of the 1900, I mean not 1900, the 1800s, uh, but it's just like how he's describing the attitude of everyone during this transitionary into the new centuries. To hell with that rotten century. Let's get it over and the door closed, shut on it. Let's close it like a book and go on reading. New chapter, new life. A man will have clean hands once we get the lid slammed shut on that stinking century. It's a fair thing ahead. There's no rot on this clean new hundred years. It's not stacked. And any bastard who deals seconds from this new deck of years, why will crucify him? Head down over a privy? Oh, but strawberries will never taste as good again and the thighs of women have lost their clutch.

31:22 And it's like this concept of like. It's true, you know, no matter what generation you're in, it was always better back in my day. There was always more virtue back in my day. Oh, but man, it was harder back in my day and I'm happy those times are gone because you got it easy. Now, you know, and it's just like it's the kind of the same thing, right, I'm pretty sure strawberries and women still got their clutch. You know what I mean, right, like. So I just found that quote very funny because he's, you know, he's kind of teasing all these nostalgic generational people. But that's chapter 12, chapter 13, you know, we see, um, contextually, the trash moving to cath, uh, callie, uh kathy.

32:08 We see again this like reinforcement of her wickedness. You know she's attempting a coat hanger abortion, or chemical abortion, knitting needle, knitting needle, that's what it was, and but we also see her able to like wickedly manipulate the doctor and the doctor kind of like at one moment was thinking to punish her for this, to like this, you know, abortion in secret against, you know, her husband, but then thinks, alright, you know what I understand her point of view like, don't try it again, here is going to be some medicine, look after yourself. Um, and we get adam meeting samuel, who's going to be like this, uh, paternal mentor, like figure to adam.

32:54 Um, but I do think, like what we see thematically here is that, like in chapter 13, the individual, which is discussed, you know, early in the chapter um, this concept that the individual has the capability to bring good and glory into the world as much as the individual has the capability of bringing evil or mundaneness, like in this concept of choice. Right, like an individual free mind is a beautiful thing that has the capability to choose to be good, to choose to create glorifying good things. And the book doesn't say it from a theological point of view.

33:38 Right, like glorifying to God, it's just. Like it is a glorifying thing for man to creatively create good, and it's a tragedy when a man uses this freedom of his mind to create evil or to not create anything at all. Like it's also it's kind of a wickedness to not create anything at all. Like it's also it's kind of a wickedness to not create anything at all, to just be mundane. And that since our species is the only creative species you know, we, we should take a pride in protecting that creativity. And I think the this isn't necessarily, I think, a theme throughout the entirety of the book, but we definitely see it play out a little bit later on, um, and I think it's something that we can relate to a lot today, more so today than you know, I think, previously, but that society wages a war against the free roaming mind, um, and that society, society wants to drug and quell and suppress a creative, free, individual.

34:47 Uh, but doing so is what uh harms a society to? To remove creativity to um, disable the creativity, disables innovation, disables the ability to better society. And Steinbeck, you know he says, taking this course is a course on a track to suicide, a societal suicide. And it's, you know, the suicide by killing one free mind at a time until the society of itself can't create anything new and it dies. Um, which I just was, like, I was like dude, I feel like that's, like I feel like that's a lot of where we're at right now, like I can't think of how many I I've.

35:30 I feel kind of bad saying this, but a lot of the high school kids I've been mentoring and helping and trying to help them find their way in life post high school, a lot of them don't have a single ounce of like direction and desire to be creative or like forge a path. Right now. A lot of them are really struggling and I'm just like I'm sure every generation I'm sure has struggled, but like I do wonder how much of it is just like oh, what's the point? Like everything's been created and there's no reward to being creative now. I don't know, um, but it does feel like society now tries to really squish the, the creative mind and dull our senses.

36:12 You know, just get in that uh. What did you call it the other day? The uh scroll of death, or just? doom, scrolling, scrolling, doom scrolling, yeah, just constantly scrolling on YouTube to the next video, next video, next video, social media tick, tock, whatever, next post, next post, and just getting in a cyclical doom thing. So that way you don't ever do anything, you just sit and occupy and I think, like John Steinbeck, would be terrified if you saw that today. He'd be like, oh my God, that's everything I fought against. So, yeah, this is chapter 13, beginning of 13, main theme of the book. I think and I'll argue that here right now with you, pat, if you want to.

36:52 I don't know if you agree, but I definitely think like the idea that the individual has the capability to choose to bring in good, and it is a glory to do good things and to be creative in creating good things and choosing to do that instead of evil or mundaneness is, I think, the main discussion here, and I think there could be more perspective-wise on that, but I do think that's the main theme of the book. But all right that's my done, rambling Over to you for chapter 13. I agree with what you're saying and technically the Industrial Revolution happened further back in time, early 1800s.

37:34 But the globalization effect of industrialization and, uh, the industrial revolution is one thing he's kind of speaking to in this. You know where he's where. You know. In chapter 12 we're talking about this movement from the kind of these dark ages of the 18th century, you know, or 19th century, into the 20th century and the because he's speaking to how you know you can make, you know on an assembly line you can do stuff faster and cheaper. You can make bread cheaper and he's comparing that to you know, know the creative mind that you're talking about, that like.

38:17 You know that men and an individual, you know, creates these incredible things and then a large group of people can do huge accomplishments, but they can't create the special things an individual does yeah, nothing is created by a group, right, it creates something. Everything is created in the individual mind and the group can come together to build it and manufacture it, but it's one man's creation, right? Um, and I find that, like I was really, I was like I don't know if I agree with that and then I was like, actually, I don't know, maybe I do agree with that so to think about me, like, even like simple inventions or big inventions, like, like you know, like like Steve Jobs, the iPhone or whatever, like you know it's like.

39:04 And now what? Like the ability to like how that's in every single person's hand, or like I feel it's kind of a prime example of what was like like this imaginative, creative individual, and then also, and then, because he kind of talks about too, how the, the, it's kind of like that that creativity, society hijacks it and um, systemizes it, and then, um, it makes it efficient and gets it out to everybody, and then it's destructive, is also like there's like a underbelly to like the individual's creativity that then also does eventually result in societal suicide from the masses, like you know, capitalizing on it.

39:53 Yeah, and I think it's like, that's like what every single like, uh, you know, uh, what's that called the futuristic dystopia? That's like what every like sci-fi dystopia is Like. We either have the apocalypse where society failed to like prevent the violence, prevent the disease, prevent the destruction, or we have the dystopia, or society has prevented it by disabling everything, yeah, and killing everything. And it's just like, I think, like, really, what he's getting here is like, you know, it's John Steinbeck's terrified of the dystopia, um, but uh, the quote here, um, you know a great quote from John Steinbeck in chapter 13.

40:41 Uh, he says and this I believe, that the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for the freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected, um, which I think is a great quote, and I think it's like I it's not always, it's not my wish, right, like this isn't, this isn't what I necessarily wish for the world, Right, or what I believe always, but I do understand what he's saying here and I see that being like truly the theme of the book. When I look at the book in hindsight, I see like this is, you know, and then there's there's more context to the quote too, right, but it's in the context that a free exploring mind does a good thing.

41:29 It's not like he wants, like everyone should be able to do whatever they wish, undirected, uh, even if it's evil, right, like kathy is an example of that. And so it's like steinbeck doesn't approve of it, right, right. And then also I was thinking like, too, like sam hamilton is the embodiment of this too, in a way, just like he is beautiful, creative, always inventing and kind of undirected. Oh yeah, you know, just like you know, and and so the same hamilton, is this, like you know, the person who gets to choose, even with someone who has a rigid wife, you know, with her morals and standards she's not very creative, right and, but she's a wonderful anchor and that's why, like you know, I love like him and lee or him, and you know, sneaking behind the barn to have the whiskey or the wine or whatever they bring.

42:23 And so we have this. You know this horrible act from Kathy to attempt an abortion, and we continue to see her manipulate people and have really no motherly instinct have really no motherly instinct and out of chapter 13, we just get. We kind of take a hard hard like nostalgia road trip. Yeah, yeah, just like. Let me tell you about my mama. Yeah, just a little side side story, and so John Steinbeck is the narrator of the story. He's in the story and we mentioned this last week that you know there's people in the story, um, and we mentioned this last week that you know there's people in the story who are real, really existed, um, but the story is fiction, um, and so um, uh, all of hamilton is um.

43:10 You know, one of these characters who is um, is his mother, is his mother in real life, is named Olive Hamilton. So I do wonder if this story has any validity to it. But in Chapter 14, it gets into the person of Olive and she gets married, she has kids and she also kind of follows in her mom's footsteps of being, you know, being the wife at home who's also, you know, fairly rigid and her morals and her upbringing of her kids is strict and she expects a lot out of them.

43:51 And it's kind of a hard line there. And she gets into selling war bonds. You know, she, she seems like a really kind of a type a person you know who, like in the like, gets it in her head this is what needs to be done. So she's selling war bonds and and it's kind of the conviction to do that comes from what she sees as was it her son. Steinbeck's older brother, or a son in the community died and the son of the community died in world war one yeah, in world, or a son in the community died in the war. A son in the community died in World War I. Yeah, in World War I a son in the community dies and she's like it's my damn duty for that boy and his family. She sees it as her responsibility to do this task.

44:35 Yeah, so we're seeing someone who thinks outside of themself you know, so also earlier I said that olive is antithetical to kathy and so um, this, while this really seems like a side story where it gets into her being a mom and selling these war bonds, all these things, I think it's also really is a um, an immediate response to how kathy is as a mother who, even before she's had kids, she's a horrid mother, you know, a horrible mother. And the um after selling these war bonds, she ends up um doing so well that they come out to fly around on an airplane and this is airplanes kind of just showed up on the scene here, like it's pretty new invention.

45:21 It's like imagine like being the first one, like first person in your community maybe not just your community, but the first person who's not a military like dog fighter to like hop in a plane. It's like the first person here nowadays to like not be like one of the developers of the tesla to like ride in like a self-piloted, like semi-truck, right like this is scary. I have no confidence in this thing, you know exactly and like I thought she had like a very like probably it's like she didn't have a big understanding of physics how, how those things work in mechanics, she's just it's made out of metal.

46:02 How does it fly? She's just flying in the air. And so they. She goes on this plane ride and, uh, I think it's a hilarious story there's miscommunication between her and the pilot. He starts doing tricks and stunts and he thinks she's all about it, telling him to keep going. And he just keeps going and he's like this lady's crazy. He's like he's pushing it to the limits and she is terrified out of her mind the whole time. And the only reason she got on the plane in the first place was because to not disappoint her kids. And so you have this, um, this mother who is a pillar of morality in her family, um, even in sickness it talks about, while she had pneumonia, she was nursing a child and then, when faced with fear, her greatest fear, like flying, she steps into that fear for her children's sake.

46:48 And so you have this mother who is just the opposite of Kathy, and I think it is a. It's a, it is a, it is a nice little like relief from the story. You know it it's a, it's a good little side note, but it also plays in deeper to to the overall theme of this story of being able to, you know, choose good or evil, and and and do the right thing or the wrong thing and being an individual, and so that's really. You know, that's really it for that chapter 14, where we get to see it's a, it's a nice like brevity.

47:28 Yeah, yeah, it's a nice little little comedic break and yeah, also, anytime an author does something like this, I think. Sometimes I see some TV shows too, where you take a side plot thing, a little side quest, and it just has nothing to do with it. It just pulls you out. It's like there's nothing to do with it. This is where the genius and good writing of Steinbeck is. This is all a part of the story. I thoroughly enjoyed this chapter too. You know what I mean. It was great. It made me immediately reminisce about my grandmother and just the type of woman she was, because we talked last time about how every single character in this story I know somebody who is one of these characters, maybe not to the nth degree of being a Kathy, or even all the way over to the Liza Hamilton, the hardcore lady but there's attributes of each of these people that I'd know, and so that's where, um, even still, we had another character brought in who was highly relatable to all people yeah, and so, um, 15 to 16 together kind of build on this theme of a uh.

48:36 I see it as a juxtaposition to the kathy, uh, the cane right, um, lee is introduced again. We already talked about him as kind of a character and who he? Who he is and the reveal that he's this very sophisticated, well-read uh man. But he, he is just as much presenting to the world an image as Kathy is. I know this may sound negative, but Lee is lying to everybody until he is seen by them. You know what I mean. And it's cool because we definitely see adam and we know adam's like unable to see kathy for what she is until, like, the poison is there and revealed, um, and if you read the book you know she, she ends up shooting him and that's the break, that's, that's the reveal.

49:34 But kathy also, we know, up into this point, her character is broken. This veil is broken by alcohol where she can't hide herself anymore. Her true character shows through. Yeah, I was thinking about this, about Lee too. Interesting line where when Sam and Lee meet for the first time, they're riding on a wagon and this is where we see Lee break character and he really only breaks character with Sam and confides in Sam because he sees Sam as someone who can understand who he is. But he talks about how, why it was like well, why would you be a house servant? You know, if you educate, you could do all these things and he's like. One of the reasons, he says, is because you can control your master, your master, which is interesting to compare him to Kathy in that he also is being manipulative.

50:22 Yeah, now, it's just a different form of manipulation, maybe with less evil outcomes, but nonetheless it is a manipulation game. It is a manipulation game, um, and so the while they're juxtaposed, they are also, they're woven into this, they're, they are cut from the same cloth in a sense, like in a sense, but they are but they are both. They're on different sides of the pendulum yeah, he's a, he's a juxtaposition of her morally right, but he is a mirror image of her behaviorally Right and I like that.

51:02 The thing that reveals him is good nature and the philosophical goodness, philosophizing over goodness, of a man and you know, the destiny and free will of a man, and that is like when he, when someone is, someone, reveals himself to be that person who thinks about those things and is good-natured. That's what, like, takes the veil off of Lee, um, and uh, excuse me, he, you know, he emphasizes, like you know, I, I have this veil on because it's what people want to see.

51:47 And just like people want to see Kathy as this beautiful, innocent girl, innocent woman, right, um, you know, they want to see her as their daughter or as their wife or you know whatever. And um, the people want to see Lee as his, as this, you know, benevolent servant who will do all the tasks, or to his, uh, like Chinese, like immigrant family. They want to see him as Chinese, right and to reveal his nature, want to see him as Chinese, right and to reveal his nature, alienizes him from both. From both, yeah, just like Kathy's nature, alienize, alienizes, alienizes her from everybody too.

52:28 And um, I thought, I thought it was really well done. Cause both these characters deal with loneliness. Oh yeah, you know, just in their own ways. And and one is a tortured animal in a cage and the other one you know where. You have this, you know, because they're both dealing with loneliness, but because one is a selfish person, the other one's a selfless person, that loneliness comes out in different ways. Yeah, yeah, and um, I see, I think, like, since they're like they're kind of on the same trajectory of like an ultimate reveal, right, um, but kathy will never be accepted and appreciated.

53:10 Like we see that lee is deeply appreciated, not just by samuel but by Samuel's wife, liza, like she's, she's hesitant, she's distrustful of Lee at first because she knows there's more there, just like she doesn't like Kathy, um, but when she goes uh to help Adam with the babies and kind of tend to the house, at one point she talks with Lee and realizes he's a Presbyterian and he knows the word of God well. And you know, that's deeply personal to Liza because of her own faith. And we see that, you know, lee is accepted and regarded as a very good man and a man with a good heart and rather than being accepted and appreciated when kathy's revealed, she has those same kind of like obedience from people, but it's out of like fear, right, um, and so she'll never, she'll never get the same result that Lee will by being good Cause like later on we'll get into where uh Kathy reveals herself to Faye and Faye's like oh my God, this is a monster.

54:24 But when uh uh Lee reveals himself to Adam but not, he doesn't really actually, he just he just all of a sudden he just comes in and starts talking normal, like like he doesn't make. There wasn't some like intentional big transitional shift. It was just like he just he just started being himself with Adam and Adam really like didn't even notice, yeah, like he just won, cause you know, maybe that's the Adam's character of being this, you know, kind of nonchalant guy, but also because it was he knew lee and it was just like, uh, it was natural to be like, oh, like I didn't even notice he's stopped doing all that well and there's no betrayal.

55:10 That's the biggest thing is like kathy's reveal almost always betrays. I mean, I think it always does betray whoever she reveals it to. Like mr ed Edwards, it's a betrayal to him. To Faye, it's a betrayal to her. To Adam, it's a betrayal to him and his children. But to Lee, when he reveals there is no betrayal, he reveals who he is, but he's always been who he is. It's just underneath a different veil. And it's almost as an act of loyalty and friendship. Like now you get to know me. Yeah, versus like now, you will know who I am. Yeah. And you will regret that. You know it's like, no, like I'm going to. You've won this.

55:52 You've won. My trust You're getting this over. Yeah, yeah, and I think it's like, yeah, kathy's reveal always is a break of trust. Lee's reveal is always a demonstration of trust. Um, that said, uh, oh, yeah. And then there's like, also the theme of, I think, like wealth, living, work and laziness, um, so it's revealed. You know, kathy does her reveal and she ends up shooting adam. Not, it seems like she's that she intentionally doesn't kill him, but she shoots him to disable him so she can leave and go do what she wants. Um, and adam goes into this sulk, this brokenness, um, which is this he has an absorbent.

56:42 Absorbent is that the word? yeah uh amount of wealth and he essentially can afford to be like in this state for years, where he is essentially lazy and good for nothing, um, whereas, like, if he didn't have this wealth, he would need to work to survive and he wouldn't have the ability, he wouldn't have the time to uh wallow in self pity, right, um, and what's that? What's that quote here, um, about? Uh? There's a quote here regarding the like, feeling sorry for yourself.

57:27 Oh gosh, where is it? Help me out here, pat. It's all the way down in 22, chapter 22. Is that where the quote comes from? I'm going to look for it real quick, but I think so, yeah, we, I think we get down into it into the chapter 22 about um, uh, I see why you're looking for that. One other little thing I was thinking of too was this you know the way that in we talked about it last week where people see through kathy's crap certain people do and she does not like when they do that makes her uncomfortable, and this is also in this chapter we're discussing is where you know lee and samuel kind of see through her, you know, see through who she is, you know, and samuel not all the way, yet he he will later see see her for all the way for who she is, but like she doesn't like sam and she doesn't like lee because they are threats to her, her game that she's playing yeah, the same way she distrusts charles in the initially right um, as the quote here.

58:34 Uh, it seemed to samuel that adam might be pleasuring himself with sadness and it's like. You know this idea of like, if you work for a living, you cannot pleasure yourself with sadness. Your, your pleasure is in the work and making a living, um, which you know nothing like. There's that much more there right now. Currently, to like dive into this theme just continually goes throughout the book of like, working for a living and the ability to enjoy that and enjoy the fruit of your work, versus like having wealth and not having happiness.

59:17 Having wealth and not having happiness, having wealth in like it, it gives you, it does, it prevents you from having the ability to be swept up in the joy of work and working out. Um, you know, your, uh, your fruit of the earth, right, um? And instead of when you're not working, you have the means to essentially just be preoccupied with your own grief and sadness, um, and it kind of like. We'll see it manifest later on. It even manifests in the Hamilton family a little bit. Um, but moving forward, um the uh, excuse me Um, next chapter, uh, the delivery of the babies.

1:00:04 The boys are born, um, and uh the caring for them. It again uh is this, you know, chapter uh, displaying um Kathy's character lane, um kathy's character um, and again this idea that um adam is able to waste away while his children survive, and his children only survive out of this time of self-pity because of a caring servant, a servant who doesn't have the wealth and uh is selflessly looking after them, making the choice to actively care for them. And then that kind of leads into this next kind of idea.

1:00:46 I don't think it's really necessarily repetitive in the novel, but it's here, I think, very important. But the concept of. You know, you have to go through your heartbreak and perhaps the betrayal of a loved one or the loss of a loved one to understand how difficult it is to survive that Sam. We don't get the context of what he lost necessarily, but it's alluded that he has lost a loved one, which might have been the catalyst for his immigration to the us, where he ended up meeting liza and having a family. But he sees an adam's heartbreak and destitution, uh the that experience in himself, and it's only because he has that experience that he's able to.

1:01:35 I think, uh and I say this like jokingly, but also like he really strikes Adam out of it, um, and it's, it's awesome Cause I think, like that's something we've all experienced is like we see a brother or a sister, um, in a way or form, especially like in the context of church and faith and like the community we have, and we're like, oh my gosh, like I just I honestly think what they need is someone to slap them, like, slap them out of it and like bring them back to reality. But you can't do that and you don't. I don't think you feel the conviction to do that if you haven't experienced it.

1:02:15 Right, and that even comes a little later in the first time he counsels them, he. That even comes a little later in, because the first time he counsels them he counsels them a little bit differently, right? So like the and it doesn't work right, right, because at this point we've had, you know, uh, you know, sam delivers these babies in a violent delivery where you know kathy's biting his hand very. Also another like biblical allegory, I think, the you know, the serpent striking the heel allegory yeah, and at this point in the book I was afraid that sam was gonna die from the wound in the hand. I was so nervous. I was like he's gonna get gangrene yeah, he's gonna die from this wound in his hand from this evil lady. But you know, and this is where you know she reveals himself to, to sam during this delivery and the um, and at this point because sam had previously said to her, samuel's like, hey, you'll.

1:03:08 Because she, she told samuel, I'm gonna leave, the, I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave once these babies come, like I'm, I don't want to have these kids, I'm out of here. He's like you'll feel it's okay you'll. You know it's okay dear. You'll feel different once the baby's here, kind of like how, the normal thing of like lots of mothers, like lots of moms, I think, to have that like go through tons of different spectrum of emotions, like especially like going through being pregnant, having babies, and some do have feelings of like, oh, my god, I don't know if I even want this. You know, for my life and then you, for many of them, once that baby comes, they hold them, they do like the changes their mind in their world and he sees this not happen for her and he's at this point. He knows that, um, he realizes who she is and that Adam screwed, and you know.

1:03:52 And then, um, and Kathy's shot and shot, adam leaves him and yet, like you said, she didn't shoot him trying to kill him, and only out of. Might have been almost more cruel. Well, I think it's. I don't even think it's out of anything, but you, it was just utility if I, if she killed him, she has, she has a posse coming after. Yeah, if she just shoots him, she gets her way, she gets to leave, she wounds him, she has, she has a posse coming after. Yeah, if she just shoots him, she gets her way, she gets to leave, she wounds him and he, um, you know the, the shame he's not gonna say. My wife shot me and left me because he knows, she knows that he is also just completely infatuated with her too, and and that, and so she I think she just does it out of pure utility like but what's best for her?

1:04:38 Um, and as Adam enters into this, you know this depression, not knowing what to do, and I do think what's interesting, one of the lines I do like that Sam just tells him. Samuel just comes, he says just just go through the motions, you know. Says, just just go through the motions, you know, and um, he says um, and this is the quote. He says, um, go through the motions, something will grow. Whether you do something or don't do anything, go through the motions. I think it was like a. That's a powerful, like lesson for going through anything in life.

1:05:19 I was thinking that whereas, like you know, the act of passivity is an action, and because and and and adam, and sam brings this back up to adam later on when he confronts him, you know, and strikes him, you know, um, but the he just said, you know, something will grow there, whether, whether you do something or not, this will become something. And, like you said, adam really chooses to not do anything with it and it gets to the point where he does have to. Sam has to put hands on him. Yeah, and he does so too, also at the provocation of Liza. Liza's like don't you come back.

1:06:00 Yeah. No matter what it means, and you've never been good at violence, yeah, so I'm telling you right now you need to be good at violence. You need to commit on your way over there that you're willing to do this. She wasn't having any more of this crap. Yeah, she was not a father. You go over there and don't come back until those babies are named, because by this point the boys are like what? Like one and a half, they're two, they're getting older and they still don't have names. Yeah, there's no names. And and lee's done all their raising and um, and so adam sinks into this long depression and during this year and a half, two years, while he's in this just stupor, kathy has gone to make her way in the world.

1:06:49 Yeah, reinvent herself as Kate. Yeah, go ahead and this chapter we're going to go through kind of 19, 20, 21 here. And that's where 19 opens up describing these brothels and kind of comparing them to churches and like not really like juxtaposing them to churches, just basically saying they're the same thing. And we were talking before about, you know, faye's brothel. Is this like motherly kind of comfort in? You know it's like bed and breakfast with happy ending? But then you have these two other houses. You have fartin jenny, who's just this like yeah, that's it, even fartin jenny's.

1:07:31 The other, like a madam running her house and that's just where. Like to me that sounds like that's where the crazy cowboys are at, that's where, like that's where. Like that's where the saloon is pouring the whiskey and you know it's hooting and hollering and you know that kind of scene we've all seen in a western. That's farting jenny's place, and then you have, uh, the, the other one, they, what's her? They don't refer to her anything besides the n-word. Yeah, so they call her the n-word yeah, uh, and it's not. It's not meant to be actually in any way, shape or form, derogatory or demeaning. It's like it's meant to be a, a very cold description, because that's what you get there.

1:08:12 You get just the most cold in uh like transactional sex. Yeah, this is the deal yeah, and it's like I can't. There's words that they describe it as is like this, dark and desperate, like passion sex that is only a transaction and there is no comfort afterwards. It's like, once it's done, it's done, you get up and you leave and she, she, will kick you out. She's not here to be your mom, um, and she has a husband right that, like it's totally about it. You know, like this, as far as we know, as far as we know, like passive guy, yeah and and I don't know if she's doing the service in or not sounds like she's probably running a crew, yeah, but it's funny too he brings up churches at the same time because it's almost like, because also I don't think Steinbeck necessarily like was a follower of Jesus.

1:09:05 I think he believed in a higher power, but I think he had problems with, like, organized religion as well, and so he's just like comparing them to almost like. In my mind it was like he was describing denominations, like was describing denominations, like we have denominations of churches here you have, you know, you got your catholics. People got ideas about that. You got your evangelicals. People have ideas about that. You have, you know, baptists, you have lutherans. Everybody has their own like ideas of what that is, and some are just cold, transactional places. Some are there for comfort and fulfillment and you know, other ones are just you're there to have a good time. You know, and it's like he is, like I think he is doing a little bit of a poke at like, the church, the church and denominations of the church and how these whore houses are essentially filling the same role.

1:09:56 Yeah, agree, um. I also think we uh see here that, uh, you know, when it comes to like evil individuals, um, there's nothing deeper right, like there is. Like I've seen people say, like you know, I was really kind of bummed because there was no character development with kathy. It's like, yeah, that's the point, there is no development with kathy, because there's nothing deeper there than the desire for her to achieve her own plans and desires, um. And kathy consistently exploits every and any desire of the human condition, um, and the way the human condition manifests, she twists and contort herself to fit that form.

1:10:44 And so when she goes to phase, she realized very quickly, like phase in need of a daughter, and she knows Faye doesn't want her daughter figure to be horn and that if she can become this daughter, like figure to Fay, that she can work herself up in the ranks of this whore house and probably take it over Um and kind of manage the whore house itself without having to be a whore Um. But I think you know again this depiction, the, the, the theme right, it's all about the individual choice, um. But I think you know again this depiction, the, the, the theme right, it's all about the individual choice, um, and the individual can choose to be good or evil.

1:11:24 We see Lee managing to fulfill the same requirements. Uh, with a different motivation. You know, lee's goodness and desire to serve those he loves allows him to control them benevolently. He becomes a brother to Adam in a way Charles could not. He becomes this motherly and fatherly figure to the boys in the absence of their own parents, at a time. I mean to the point where, like, uh, when sam goes over there to sit with the boys and name them with adam and lee, after he brings adam out of his stupor, uh, the boys know more chinese than they know english and they know lee's commands to sit and behave and occupy themselves. To the point where, like, they don't even cry, they just sit down and occupy themselves in the dirt in the farmhouse while the men just look at them trying to decide what to name them right.

1:12:13 And Lee is also, you know this, like rubber wall, able to bounce ideas back against the questions that Samuel's always pondering, and like he fits that role that Samuel needs because, you know, we find out, all of Samuel's kids pretty much have moved on with their lives by this point and are well established. And this is a point where in Samuel's's life he kind of needs that philosophical son. And so we see, like, just as kathy contorts herself to fit the manifestations of others in order to manipulate them, lee contorts himself to, but in like a self-service way to meet the needs of others around him.

1:12:56 Um, but, yeah, I think that's like in this, in these chapters where that theme is continually built upon. Um, but chapter 22, last chapter, for part two, um, we see, you know Adam, he's playing the victim and you know, this is the point where Sam strikes Adam out of his stupor. Um, and you know, there's a moment where, like I think, as a reader, we're concerned. Adam's gonna, for the first time in his life, get violent, right, sam strikes him and we're concerned, like what's? How is adam gonna respond? Um, but adam does respond and thanks and even has like an emotional breakdown later on in the chapter where he's like, oh, my god, I haven't been a father to my boys, like, right, I've failed them.

1:13:47 And it's only by your intervention that I'm awake now and I feel like for the first time in years, I'm seeing the world again and the uh the book says his eyes weren't dead as they had been, and Adam says it's hard to imagine. I'd thank a man for insults and for shaking me out like a rug, but I'm grateful. And I'll tell you what, bro, that was always my attitude too. I can remember distinctly the darkest moment in my life and how I was shaking like a rug out of it. Um, it was hard, dude, but like I only have thanks and gratitude to those who pulled me out of it.

1:14:28 Um, and you know, um it was. I just thought it was pretty interesting. You know, this concept of the names where we again get the theme of like Cain and Abel reintroduced. Um, and you know, pat, I feel like you got a lot to say here, right Cause I mean, you and I, while we were writing the notes for this, uh, you're like we could have a whole podcast just on chapter 22. And the concept of the story of Cain and Abel being the story of everybody and the story that spans every generation, and so I kind of want to hand it over to you to kind of see how you want to dive into this thematically, because there is a lot to unpack and there's a lot of great quotes, for sure.

1:15:13 For sure. Yeah, and even you know the. I think that there's a lot of like little one-offs that just like little, little single things that are said that you could spend a lot of time unraveling, and you know, starting with you know where you know we're just talking about Sam shaking him out like a rug. It's just like. Sometimes a man needs a punch in the gut or a slap in the face and that is, um, that's just the way it it is, and I've seen people in my life and I've been on people in my life where, like, I'm not close enough to them to have done that, but I've just I see, like their, their dads or other men in their life, just like, kind of like, like, ah, you know he's just in this funk. You know I'm just like, and you know he probably won't respond well to like a firm hand, and I'm just like, and and even whether it's like, you know, even like you don't always have to physically do this sometimes it's just sometimes you need the.

1:16:04 You know the figurative slap in the face, get you, get yourself out of the funk. But I've seen where that like favor has been denied to other men and it has not benefited them? yeah, it does not benefit them. It results in them just continuing on and in this passive depression, um, and or you know, just yeah, just this, uh, inability to be decisive about anything, and and and so I think that it's, you know, sudden rex, playing into something that's deeper here with, with men, men, and and going back to where you're saying before, where Adam or Sam was saying just you know, go through the motions or something else will grow up in it, and where, um, sam's confronting them and Adam saying you know, I didn't do this, I didn't do it, and Sam said you haven't undone it.

1:16:56 You know, he said you haven't undone it, your boys don. You haven't undone it, your boys don't even have a name, you know. And so this thing Again is happening. Where the void Was left, something will fill it, you know and it hasn't been, and it's Adam's responsibility to undo it. You know the situation he's in. Um, and I do think it's funny that, as these characters, they're trying, it's funny that, uh, as these characters, they, they, they're trying to, it's it's three, three men trying to name two boys. There's no women around and it's kind of like a predicament. They're like it lies. It said, samuel, you don't come home until those boys have names. And it's getting late, Like, like. It's like 11 o'clock at night by the time.

1:17:37 They're like sitting around with these boys pondering like what the hell, do we name? them, yeah, and they're like what do we do, Joe and Jack? Yeah, and they're just like, well, let's go to the Bible. It's full of names. And the situation with them has been. What Sam has seen is like he's seen the Genesis story playing out and the Cain and Abel story and he's like he's seen the the genesis story playing out and the cain and abel story and he's like, well, he could, you know their brothers, their twins, you know their mom, you know, is kind of this like like a pseudo eve character, and he kind of likes like you know whether he's realizing, or he's like, all right, we'll just read the bible. So get out and like, start recounting this story and as they're breaking it down, they have commentary throughout it and they're talking about it, um, and the.

1:18:21 I think that one of one of the parts I did like was as they're, they're talking about you know cain and abel, and one gave him, you know, vegetables and the guy gave him meat. What's the deal with that? And he's, uh, and sam just simply says something along the lines of, well, maybe God just had a preference, like, maybe he just, maybe he just liked, like, is he allowed to have a preference, and I thought that was interesting to thought just to be like preference of gifts. Yeah, like, um, and I don't know, he's God I guess he's maybe is allowed to have preference of these things. Sure, um and so maybe.

1:19:05 And what sam's getting at is maybe it wasn't a right or wrong, like maybe one guy didn't do the right, one guy, one brother did the right thing, one brother did the wrong thing. Just one brother did one thing, one brother did another thing, and one was, uh, deemed good and the other was deemed, you know just not as good not wanted. Yeah, um, and the, they start to get into it and they're talking about this story. And they're talking about how is this, you know, is this everybody's story or why is? Why is this story grabbing on to so many people? And and all of a sudden, you know, adam says, well, I didn't kill my brother. And then he just stops talking right there and he just goes off in a stare and he's it doesn't say what he's thinking about, but I think we can, as a reader, we can assume what he's thinking about.

1:19:50 A couple things, you know. Which is one he could be thinking about? The fact that he didn't kill his brother, but he did just leave his brother, uh, in any, uh, for the rest of time, his brother is set in stone as this farmer just toiling, yeah, so you could be thinking about that. But also, I do wonder if did he all of a sudden realize his own story of, and the connections to you know like, well, no, this is my story yeah, like I think he did, I think that was the moment like of reflection. Is adam having that like internal epiphany of like realizing, like wait? I think he saw back to the matches yeah, like charles was kane, charles was going to kill me.

1:20:36 My father did not favor charles gift, just, but he favored mine and from charles's perspective, just like from kane's perspective, you know, mine may have not taken as much work and toiling um and like I, yeah, I do think that's exactly what happens. Like adam internally has this epiphany and it doesn't need to be, I think, expounded to the reader, right. We're just told he's there glossing over it in his mind and maybe he's realizing the answer to the question that Charles always posed, which was that stinking knife.

1:21:20 That knife. Why didn't he use it? Why didn't he care about it? Not once. Right, and I wonder if he was always like, if Adam was struck in this moment also by like the like. Oh, I have the answer to my brother's question. Yeah, if only I could tell him Right, I do think too, like in this moment, like, right, like, while that's happening, lee quotes it. You know it was like well, this is a quote from Lee, but he says this is the best known story in the world because it is everyone's story. I think it is the symbol, I think it is the symbol story of the human soul and I like how steinbeck gives him dialogue heel here.

1:22:04 That is very realistic of like, now, hear me out, guys, hear me out. Like you can see lee putting his hands up and say just let me work through this, because I'm not even sure I'm right, but I think I'm on to something. He says I'm my way. Now Don't jump on me if I'm not clear. The greatest terror a child can have is that he is not loved and rejection is the hell he fears. With rejection comes anger and with anger comes crime. For the reject, rejection, rejection, and with the crime, guilt. There is the story of mankind and like, in saying that, I cannot imagine that it wasn't just like nails to you know, adam's mind living through that he's like, oh my gosh, adam's greatest I mean Charles's greatest fear was not being loved by my father, and that rejection was a fear.

1:22:56 It was a hell for him and it's a hell he's lived in for the last 20 some years. And that rejection created anger, and an anger that has always been at a core rift between us, and it is an anger that is manifested in the doubt of my father's inheritance to us and there is a guilt in that crime, and that I can see it in my brother's letters to me that they were littered with guilt. Um, and it is, if it's not the story of mankind, it's at least my story. And how can I say it's not going to be the story of my boys at some point, cause it's also the story of kind, of my wife and I, um, and it's just like it's like, you realize, like it's already manifested several times.

1:23:41 Steinbeck's already laid the foundation and so, like now, it's kind of like one of those things like when they're doing this, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm terrified for these boys, cause I'm afraid they're going to have lived like the same story. Definitely. And it's funny he like he was whipping out some yoda on us. yeah you know, it's like anger leads to hate, you know, and uh, and the word rejection, it's funny. I was thinking about that because I was listening to that little part on the way over here and, man, I got so pissed off. Yesterday a very simple thing happened. I'm with my boy, we were hungry.

1:24:22 I whip into this local pizza joint. I was like. I was like let's not go to the fast food place, let's support the locals. So I go in the local spot it's 11, 55, the open sign was on. I didn't check what time they open. Walk in there and this guy just says um, you know, uh, we're not open yet. And this thing inside me was I was so angered, this thing inside me welled up and upon later reflection I was thinking of little things, you know, like, dude, just offer us a soda, we'll sit down, we'll.

1:25:04 Dude, just offer us a soda, we'll sit down, we'll go buy your food in a few minutes. And like that's a customer service conversation for another day. But upon reflection of this was like why was I? Like I was unhinged at rejection and being like and pride in that rejection, and it's such a tiny, like you know, micore, I didn't like lose my mind, like I just like walked out and left and I was like not getting my business. You know, we went to the chain, you know whatever thank you and so, but anyways, like the uh as processing that little micro event, I was like I think, personally for me, like, yeah, like rejection is the one of the ultimate things that like flares up in me as a and it's typically also. It's like it feels like it's nothing you did wrong, you didn't even do anything wrong, but you're rejected and being it's just like.

1:25:51 It is at the core of, I think man, and I think that it's not uncommon, like that feeling I had, is wasn't a one-off for. Think that it's not uncommon, like that feeling I had is wasn't a one-off for me, it's not unique, that is a worldwide, you know like, just like feeling of rejection that comes in in that moment. It came in a little bit, but in other ways, in other times in life it can come on so strong it can unhinge your life and and so the uh I just thinking about that on the way over here and the with that crime comes the guilt and the guilt of man, and the lead then goes on to say a little thing about like, you know like a kid, basically like in secret, kicking a cat.

1:26:34 You know, no one's like being a mean kid, you know, kicking the cat, um, and how these things manifest through us and through time and through. So like, just like how I was saying earlier, like, no, I don't know anybody who's ever like straight up killed, murdered their brother, but I do know, like the mean kid who kicks the cat, you know like, and so like, the story of canon evil is the story of mankind, um, in that. And so then they move into naming the kids and, uh, the it's funny because they almost didn't name them. They like get done, philosophizing, have this whole conversation.

1:27:16 Then they're like, okay, but now what? Well, we still don't have a name. It's like, all right, let's buckle down and do this. They'll tell me some names. And Sam's just like what about Caleb and Joshua? They're two dudes who went into the promised land and he names he's like I don't like the name Joshua. I don't like Joshua's a general Adam with his you know, he's not a fan of the military. And so he's like, oh, name one, caleb. One kid cries and so they say that's his name. And then what's another name? It's like how about Aaron, the other kid cries, they give it to him. And the. I think we have some foreshadowing here in their naming, not only just as, yeah, another C name, another A name, but and he referred to one as the dark one he was, one had one had dark hair, one had light hair, darker complexion, yeah, but the.

1:28:14 That's right, so like, but that's you know, it's like all right, we've got our Cain, we've got our Abel. It's right there, it's laid out for us pretty clearly. But some foreshadowing there of one made it to the promised land, the other one didn't you know, and oh, you don't want to say it. Well, we can't. Biblically, yeah, biblically, caleb makes it to the promised land. Exactly, and Aaron, he was a part of the generation that left to wander the desert. And similarly too, we have also Adam's story. He was a wanderer, right. So the you know with that we also have.

1:28:58 They're talking about you know, was it a bad thing to be Cain or not? Also for a little bit. And then Sam just kind of says he's like, well, one guy only got 14 verses and the other one went on to have kids, and in that too the fact the way that, um, for the mark of cain was actually a mark of protection, yeah, in a way he said that you know, whoever bears this will not be harmed in the story. And so sam gets into this thing of you know. Was it, you know, that mark of cain a curse, or was that a you know, a blessing?

1:29:45 Yep, yeah, um Lee, you know he's. He says you know it's a great and lasting story. Um, a great and lasting story is for everyone, or will not last. Um, and that's actually like a quote for Steinbeck. A lot of people quote that as to like being something steinbeck said uh, it was here, you know, in east india, and it's true. Like the, the story has to be about everyone and like the canon able story is a story about everyone. And I don't know about you, but I went to, like public school and like we read the canon able story in english and like everyone knows this story, right, because it is everyone, every generation's story. Um, and uh, you know another quote for about this you know we are descended from this.

1:30:28 This is our father. Some of our guilt is absorbed in our ancestry. What chance did we have? We are the children of our father. It means we aren't the first, um, and this kind like this idea of like you know we're not, we're not embarking on something that isn't known like, we know what's ahead of us, so we kind of we should know what to expect. Um, and it again kind of this idea of like if we aren't the first and we're the children of our fathers. You know and this is a story, um, you know, that the guilt of it is absorbed within the ancestry. Doesn't that free us to make a choice?

1:31:08 Doesn't that free us to make an active choice of free will, of like to to be the good, to take the good, like, presented with the option as kane is to commit violence, commit crime, uh, against our own kin. We still have the choice not to right. We have the choice to be absolved of it. Um, and I think that's like, again, you know, at this core theme of the book, right, and kind of like, how he closes it out here is like, just because one child's named Caleb, one child's named Aaron, doesn't mean they don't have the choice, and they do have it, and I think that's how we'll see, you know, their futures play out as, like you know, they become very large characters on the rest of the novel, of course, um, but like the, the opportunity to decide, will they be able?

1:32:00 Will they? Will they be able, will they be cain? Is it an opportunity? And that's just what it is. Um, and that's kind of like, I think, really like the beauty of this whole book is like how that manifests throughout the next two parts. So so, yeah, any other kind of closing thoughts you got for us, pat? You know, I think that the choice is kind of going to be the. That phrase is going to be kind of one of the big, like you know, leading phrases and things as we move into parts three and four and the, now that we've moved through parts one and two part one, the setup, you know, for the building this world.

1:32:44 And part two, you know the. Now the characters are established. And now we're going to follow these boys of Adam's into parts three and four and see how their story unfolds, as it's been maybe written in stone or maybe not, time will tell. Well, thanks for joining us. Kid Definitely appreciate you. We hope you're loving East of Eden and dog-eared dialogues. We certainly get a lot of joy out of this.

1:33:25 It's just good to philosophize every once in a while, you know, and have some good context for it. But we hope you all are having a good week. We hope you enjoy 4th of July or enjoyed 4th of July by the time this episode drops and stayed safe out there. But with all that, till next time.