Dog-Eared Dialogues - East of Eden Part 1

0:01 Welcome to the second Dog Ear Dialogues. I know we've been making promises out our booties and under-delivering on Dog Ear Dialogues, but hey, we are happy you're here because we got a book for y'all, a book that we really enjoyed, and we are so excited to talk about it. But this one, of course, we want to do good, due, diligent work to it. So this is going to be a four-parter to align with the four parts of the novel, and Pat and I are going to be covering East of Eden. That's right. And if you start listening now on Audible, if you listen to this part one teaser, get you interested in it and start listening now on Audible.

0:45 If you listen to this part one teaser, get you interested in it and start listening on Audible as these come out, you'll probably be on track to kind of, if you listen very consistently, yeah, you got to go through it. It's a long book. It's a what it gives you 25 hours or more? Yeah, but that gives you a month to listen to it, so you know if you're doing. It's no, you know, don't get me wrong, it's no Rebel Yell of 36 hours of Stonewall Jackson. You know, it's no Lonesome Dove, which I think Lonesome Dove was also 36 hours, it was a long one.

1:25 But yeah, here at the Make it Pass show we're dropping another Dog Ear Dialogues for y'all. I hope you enjoy the banjo in the background, provided courtesy of Space Banjo. That is the artist. It's just acoustic banjo, so check him out. He just records all his own stuff, puts it up on spotify to listen to. Um, but yeah, uh, you know, pat, let's kind of just again outline, you know, dog-eared dialogues for people, since this is the second one. But the concept is like this isn't't like Brews and Reviews. This isn't where, you know, we're giving a thumbs up or thumbs down on a book.

2:11 If we're doing dog-eared dialogues, it's because this book knocked our socks off. We both happen to listen to it close enough in proximity that we can do it justice by giving you know a breakdown of why it's great in our opinions and, yeah, any other thoughts or comments from you regarding, like you know, what dog ear dialogues is yeah, no, I think that it's a chance for us to, for me and you to get to revisit something we just really enjoyed and get to kind of have someone to talk to about it, and it's kind of a little it's a little book clubby. A hundred percent Get together and talk or talk about you know what we thought about it, what we learned from it.

2:53 You know all that stuff here, the people's perspectives, and so you know, we hope that it can be something like that for you too, if with us. Or you know if you, after, even after listening to this, go and read the books and take interest in them and yeah, we're picking books that that have had. Yeah, they're impactful, they're not just not just something we uh, cheap, you know paperback novel type thing that we're just like read and done with the story or whatever something that has been. You know that deals with kind of the depths of man. You know, know some of the things that we really like to like to see the depths of mankind and where we come from. Why are we the way we are? And I think authors put that together in a, in a really packaged way for us, and sometimes it's a long drawn out package and you got to take the rest of your life to figure out what they were even talking about.

3:45 But um, sometimes it just is clear. It's clear as water. Yep, like when, when they say it, you see it? Um, and I'll be honest, east of Eden, I think, is like you know the idea we grew up as kids. It's written by John Steinbeck, uh, back in 1952. And I think for millennials and anyone younger than millennials, we got a stigma usually towards these books, like, oh, this book is older than my mom. You know what I mean. Yeah, and it's long and it's about a time in life that's not relevant anymore or whatever. Right, it's like we just kind of wrote all these off in high school and sometimes they're boring and hard to understand.

4:29 You know, I think Great Gatsby is a classic one, right, I just excuse me. I know I was dunking on Great Gatsby last podcast when we were talking about East of Eden that we really enjoyed reading it. But like, great Gatsby is one of those ones that's constant. Like the constant go to is like what is the green light across the lake mean? What is the eyes on the billboard mean? You know what I mean. And it's like I'm not saying the author didn't have an allegory there, I'm just saying that that ruined reading for me in high school, Like just being beat over the head with metaphors from a book that was kind of boring. And there's no nothing wrong if you enjoyed great gaspy. I accept that it is a good book. I just didn't like it.

5:10 Um, but I think east of eden here the reason you and I just are so like we got so much out of it and we enjoyed it is like I really don't think there's a lot of veiled hidden concepts or like the point. Like. I think Steinbeck really, like you don't know exactly, you're listening or reading along, you're like let's see how he pulls this off. Like you know what the play is going to be and you know very much from the beginning of the book what the objective of, what the objective of the book is, uh, what it's trying to tell. And so with that, like you, you, you want to see if it's.

5:52 Is it going to be convoluted, is it going to be kind of preachy? I think Steinbeck makes it like the most humble, like layman's tense of it. You know, like, and it's essentially you know the, this idea, this concept of like you know the forever struggle throughout all of history of man to overcome evil and man to overcome evil, nature, and uh, I think that's like easily something that could be preachy. But I loved it because steinbeck, I felt like in Ace of Eden, he just gets to the point with it pretty clear and you're delighted when he does. You're like, oh, wow, that was an end zone. I feel like that was really good, like he made that really clear.

6:34 And we were kind of dancing around this I'm dancing around the descriptions just to give people an opportunity to turn the podcast off, just to be like okay, it does sound like it's up my alley, so I don't want anything spoiled, right? So, uh, but pat, what about you? What are you kind of like? Why'd you, if you could contextualize it without spoiling anything, why'd you really enjoy it? yeah, I think that I went into. I really had no idea what it was about going into it, and then I do end up loving the setting of the book. I love old America and I love the setting it's set in, and so it really is relatable to me.

7:19 But at the same time it's relatable in one way but at the same time it's a thing that I've never actually been all the way in Like when I was, when I was born. The old guys in overalls were some of the guys who were born when, like, the middle of this book took place, you know like, but so like it's an age, an era that I was, I I didn't get to live in, but I just barely kind of got to touch and see it's a little mysterious. So there's mystery there. So I feel like I know it and at the same time I don't. So I want to go in that world more. And then also just these kind of classic there's some classic, archetypical characters in here that are timeless that he brings into the story and watching their stories unfold.

8:10 While you can kind of, like you were saying, you can kind of know where things are headed, you still want to know where it unfolds too, and so, um, I felt like I saw myself in a lot of these characters, or saw like a lot of traits of these characters and people who I know, and so it just felt like the essence of mankind was captured in this, in this book oh yeah, like, and I mean I feel like the nostalgia of learning and listening is encapsulated and like by that I mean like the memories you have of, like your mother, your grandmother, your father, your grandfather, an uncle or an aunt someone's saying something and it, you know, becomes a core memory, you know, I mean, and you still remember, like in the car when they said it and how that was the first time you'd ever heard that, you know, and the wisdom or what, whatever you pulled from it.

9:07 Right, and I think it's just like it's. This book called back on so many of those things for me, like, so many, like core moments of learning and growing up in life and like, like you said, these characters are very relatable because we can really see a lot of ourselves or, excuse me, um, our loved ones in them, and sometimes it's sad. You know there's a there's, because this whole book is definitely gonna show, like, unfortunate sides of people, um, but without being around the bush any further. Uh, let's do like a little introduction here and start getting into the characters and then, uh, we'll get into the key points of themes.

9:48 We're just going over the first 11 chapters um and the themes. Throughout, there are 52 of so yeah, there's 52 chapters. Yeah, but part one of the book is just with chapters 1 through 11, uh, so we're going to keep things just in that section and so, uh, at least you'll know that we're not going to spoil the whole book for you. But now's kind of your last chance to turn away before we get into spoilers for the first part of the book. But East of Eden, like I said, written by John Steinbeck back in 1952. A lot of people refer to it as his magnum opus. You know his best work, the thing he poured everything he had into. You know his best work, the thing he poured everything he had into, and the summary on Google and stuff, if you look around, it'll say East of Eden is a story of a venomous rivalry between two generations of brothers, paralleling the biblical story of Cain and Abel.

10:39 However, family and friendship helped to prevent disaster by guiding the family to the realization that mankind may be flawed but redemption can be found. And I want to just give an opportunity for us to kind of insert, like our own personal description, summaries pulls away from this. And you know if I and this is kind of like the way I would sell it right how I would sell it to someone I want to read it is that this book tells a very believable story. Some of it might be nonfiction I think the majority of the novel's fiction but, as best as we could tell from John Steinbeck's writings, some of it may be based on true events, but it really tells, at the core, the story and lesson of learning that you have a choice to either do evil or rise above evil and actively choose, consciously choose, not to commit evil, not to be evil.

11:44 Um, and in doing so is the realization that you can be good and you can be like, not just decent, not passable, but like genuinely you can be genuinely good. Um, once you realize it's a choice that you can make and that you can choose to overcome the evil within us and I know that sounds philosophical. A lot of the book is A lot of the book is like dialogue of, like talking and philosophizing. But I really do believe like that's not news, right, that's something I knew of the Bible, right, like that's like a lesson of the bible.

12:25 But this tells it in a very uh, well drawn out context spanning across generations, where, like it really sticks with home of like essentially just lessons that you can go over through in your mind day in and day out and be like am I gonna choose? Am I, am I gonna choose to overcome that? Am I gonna choose to conquer the evil to govern the evil, or am I gonna let it govern me? Um, so that's how I would sell it to to an audience. But what about you? yeah, I think that I would just say, you know, it's an epic tale in a way, like the way it's kind of set up as it follows multiple generations, set in old America, where you have just a story of men doing their best to relate to one another and, to your point, find their way to goodness and as they define it, because we see all these different characters.

13:39 You'll see different characters throughout it who don't arrive in a spot where they feel quote unquote good, yeah, they fail to govern the evil. You'll see others who kind of think they they did arrive in a good spot, but they really didn't either, and others who did find you know contentment, happiness and you know purpose in those things and so, and some characters are good, but they second guess it forever, like they never realize they're good. Right, because I think you know and this is a quote in the book but, like, once you realize you don't need to be perfect, you can truly start to be good. And it's like some people get so wrapped up in being perfect that they don't realize that they're good people.

14:20 And being wrapped up in perfectionism can steer you wrong you know what I mean and steer you from and keep you from being good. Yeah. You know what I mean. Um, and even like, and, and also like, even to more tightly put it to somebody I'd say like this is a tale of the struggle of brotherly relationship. Oh yeah, and there's all these things that come around it, but at its core, brotherly relationship. Oh yeah, and there's all these things that come around it, but at its core, brotherly relationship, because we have some blood brothers as well as let me also say this too I've been selling this book to ladies lately, right. So I I want to make sure to like now, like in no way, shape or form political correctness or anything like that.

15:00 Like that's not my intention here, but like this is a book that I don't think is just written for dudes, right. Like it's not just about like bros I genuinely do believe. Like the allegory in the book is on both sides of the genders, right. And like there's just as much here for women to learn and meditate on and can consider as there is for the dudes, right. So I just wanted to say it cause you were. You know, you said like it's about like brotherly stuff, and it is. It does focus on that. But I just also want to say, like women, you're not going to be like, oh, I can't relate to these dudes. Like you'll listen to him and be like, oh, I can relate to these dudes. Right, I agree for sure, for sure.

15:43 I agree, for sure, for sure. So, uh, let's, uh, we can get into some of these. You know some of the characters we're gonna break down some of the characters. Talk through a little bit of them and then go, go through and break down some of the themes and key points we saw throughout the chapters and the, you know, I can't remember is the first person we hear of Sam Hamilton, or is it? Or is it Cyrus Trask in the? opening. That's a good question. I think the first chapter begins with just a. Well, I mean, I know the first chapter is just glossing over time, right, and establishing the setting. Glossing over time and establishing the setting.

16:23 So I think the first character that we're introduced to is technically Adam, and it says Adam was born to Cyrus. I think Right, but that's anyways. Cyrus is the first dude we spend time with. Yeah, yeah, and so Cyrus is what a guy. And also the story starts basically right in Civil War time. So we've got yeah, like right after it, like right as it's coming to a close, yep, and so the antebellum period. Right, that's a thing, but you can't say antebellum anymore, right, that's a thing, but you can't say antebellum anymore.

17:08 What's the thing with that? I don't know, I'll look it up. I don't know what the deal is with that, but if you know what I mean, that's when it is after the Civil War. But Cyrus Trask is a veteran and I'm not going to take away from any veterans out there, but I kind of put his veteran status in quotation marks because of what he goes and does with it afterwards. He does end up a leg down, he ends up, yeah man he lost a leg in the war, chopped at the knee, but he was, from what we can tell, basically he was in a battle and he got shot in the leg, lost his leg, and so he was in one inconsequential battle at the end of the Civil War.

17:53 And Cyrus goes on to greatness slowly as he remakes himself. Cyrus is basically a nobody coming back from the civil war. He's a man without a leg and he starts to kind of fall in love with civil war history and all the battles and everything that happened and I think he just kind of starts to uh believe his own bs, like like he just he realizes, you know, this new young wife of his alice will just believe it like no questioning and no one's questioning it because, good god, you're gonna be the man to question a man missing a leg, right but yeah, and what I'm saying is that I don't even think he set out to like start being like I'm going to I don't think the lies about everything.

18:45 No, at first it was a little bit of exact. It says so. I remember it's like he's just a little bit of exaggeration. Yeah you know. So basically he'd say like something along the lines of yeah, when I lost my leg, you know, in that battle. And the next time he tells a story it's like when I was charging forward leading the flag in that battle when I lost my leg. Next thing, you know, it's when I was in gettysburg, yeah, you know. And holding the flag and he actually. It does to say that he never actually personally claimed he the way that he would tell stories was this way of. He would never directly say that he had done something like with like a stolen valor statement. But but it was the way that, it was the context of like expertise the way that he would tell the story about it and have expertise of what happened.

19:31 It was as if he had been there, which you know. Credit to him. Thinking now about, like with the internet and today, what we could do with. If you wanted to become an expert on anything, you could go, take the time, read all the books, read all the stories and like, watch all the videos and you could become an expert on something. But at this time, you know he, he was reading all the whatever literature he could and articles, and talking to people and he did become an expert in a very short amount of time with what they had at hand. To the point where this was at this time in the world, you know, we had books and stuff, but, like oral tradition, oral history was still like a very heavily like relied upon thing. So if somebody oh yeah, I heard from up the road, you know, you know, mr collins said such and such happened, well, he's a man of his word.

20:17 And if he said it happened, it happened. You know that kind of thing. And so, uh, anyway, cyrus Trask ends up, you know, ultimately becoming a guy who's out in DC and who is advising the president or the vice president, advising on the highest levels. Um, and during that time, between when he's a just a guy who lost his leg in the civil war and becoming this huge, influential character in DC, um, he has two sons and he raises them, um, as a very strict military man with strict disciplines.

21:02 Um, was there there anything you know For when we're breaking some of this down, we'll get into. Some of you know Cyrus' Story, but not a ton of it. Were there any certain characteristics about him that stood out to you? I just thought it just reminded me very much of like. It's kind of like the the lie got too big. You know what I mean. And it's that embod kind of like the the lie got too big. You know what I mean? Um, and it's that embodiment of like. I think we all knew this guy. We all had a friend whose dad really pressured him to be a good fighter, like be a good brawler, cause his dad, I think, wanted people to think he was a good brawler Right and it was like, maybe like we had that friend to think he was a good brawler Right, and it was like, maybe like we had that friend who either he was a good fighter or something like that he was pretty scrappy Tennis player, whatever.

21:51 Yeah, and it was like it was pushed on him by his father and like that was kind of like. It was almost like like my son is this good because I'm this good, and like even though he might've never really been that good, and like I think there's just times where, like you realize, as a kid growing up, you're, like you realize, like dude, some of my friends' parents are like kind of full of shit. You know what I mean. Like and like as a kid I thought like, oh, mr So-and-so, or know what they're talking about, whatever. But then you realize, like, and I think you realize it too because you're friends with those people and they're like, I think I'm a better you know football player in high school than my dad ever was, because, but it was my, it's my dad's dream, it was his dream, so now it was like, you know, vicariously, living through me, and it's clear that, like that's a hundred percent what's going on here with cyrus.

22:42 Like Cyrus is drilling his boys to be the best soldiers that he never got the opportunity to really be Because he was just a nobody injured in the war, sent back home. And now he's like, well, I got to walk the walk and my boys better look like the sons of a great military advisor. Right, exactly, of a great military advisor, right, exactly, and regardless of if he lost his like leg or not, like he wasn't even interested in military stuff as we could tell until, like, even he wasn't even interested in being a soldier while he was a soldier. It was afterwards that he kind of had this looking back on it and, yeah, so he, this guy, he embodies just a charlatan too. Also, you know someone who's just, you know, uh, uh, a fraud, yeah, lot of ways and so.

23:25 But something that does come out with him too is, you know, he's not all bad, like he does love his sons in his own ways, you know, and he's a strict, gruff man. But he has some encounters with his sons that we'll get into later of, like, the way that he loves his sons in his own way, own way. And so he had two sons, one with one lady and one with another lady. His first son, adam, he had with Mrs Trask. We don't know her name, but Mrs Trask was his first wife when he was a nobody and he was a philandering with a prostitute and got the syphilis.

24:07 Then he gave it to his wife. Then his wife found out about she was a super like pious lady. And the embarrassment, and the embarrassment, and the embarrassment, she went out and drowned herself. Yeah, in a puddle there was not a lot of water in there, like right after her baby being born, like, yeah you know, adam. Adam was born, couldn't even remember what his mom looked like before she drowned herself so it's a you know what a, what a way to come into the world for adam as a, uh, you know. So his, his, anyways, he, he's a adam, is the. You know, when we first see him and as we learn about him, he really he's motherless in so many ways.

24:50 Even though he doesn't really know that he's motherless, he kind of knows that she's not his mom but Alice, yeah, alice isn't his mom, but he, as a kid, he wants her to be his mom. As a kid, he wants her to be his mom. We just see this person who lacks self-determination, lacks decisiveness, and he really is what his father has made him to be, in the way that he's a little bit of a shell. He just follows orders, and part of that being the indoctrination of one. It's in his nature to be indoctrination of, you know, one, it's the. It's in his nature, um, to be indoctrinated this way and his dad drills him into being a soldier.

25:31 He doesn't really want to be a soldier, but, um, that's what he just naturally will become because he's not gonna, he doesn't have the you know, the drive to stand up and say no, right. And then we have the flip side to him, which is his brother, charles, and Charles was his father, cyrus, but the mother, alice Trask, who was a young lady at this time, comparatively to you know, the dad, and she was just kind of a silent, passive lady in the book as I remember her. I think it says something along the lines of like what Cyrus demanded most was just an obedient wife who spoke when spoken to and otherwise was seen but not heard.

26:20 And like she just like, as far as we know, alice was like totally fine with that, like there's no idea that alice had any more ambition as a wife, um, or mother, you know. Like that's kind of all she wanted, yeah yeah, and she's a pretty, you know minor character in the book herself, but you know the way she plays into the, you know adams and charles's stories, you know more important and and she's uh, um, I think that for alice too, like, uh, it's important to the way that you said before that she was also just someone who just listened to whatever cyrus said about his past.

27:02 She took as whether she believed it to be fact or not. I was like that's fact. Okay, it's fine, I don't even care if it's true or not, but that's just where I'm at. We've met kind of passive people like that. It's just kind of you know hang on to every word that someone says I'm like they. They not really someone who has a lot of deductive logic, for sure. Also, folks, we're assuming that you've read the book if you're listening to this, so just know that in context when we're discussing the characters and yeah, and it's all right if you haven't. You just, you just are okay with us spoiling it up for you as well um.

27:42 But so then we have, you know, charles is this flip side to adam. He's impulsive, uh, instinctual, violent, um, emotional, you know, type of character as, as a boy, and we start with these, we start with these characters as boys and we see them progress through um, through their lives. But, um, their relationship is of Adam and Charles, I think, is a lot like a lot of brothers in a lot of ways, which is why I think the Cain and Abel story, in a lot of ways it relates to a lot of brothers too. Even though it's not as extreme, always as killing your brother, it's there's just tension and differences and jockeying for approval of a father and that sort of thing and just feeling different and feeling this sort of thing.

28:30 And so the Adam and Charles relationship is really key to part one of this book and how they interact with each other. And then jumping over to the other family that gets followed in this book and then jumping over to the other family that gets followed in this book, we have the patriarch of the family is Sam Hamilton. What a guy, sam Hamilton. You know, I think that Put some spec on him, dude, sam Yule, yeah, sam Yule Hamilton, that's true. His name is Sam Yule and he's kind of mysterious of origin. We know he comes from Ireland and we know he's an immigrant, but we don't really know he's a little.

29:14 Melchizedek-y yeah like what drove him to come over. We know that it was something in his past that he decided to come to America and seek a different life. Um, and he's yeah, like I said, he's an immigrant, he's just this hard worker who can't turn a profit, but he's a dreamer and an inventor and all of his neighbors love him. And he um, especially as an immigrant, at first, you know, his neighbors aren't so sure about him, but then, very quickly, they know that, like this guy will do anything for him. He'll dig him a well, he'll weld him some special, unique thing for their wagon to work better, whatever, it is and he'll take care of them.

29:58 I don't know if he welded them, but he forged it. I don't know. If welds were, that's a good point. I don't know. When was the first welding device invented? You know what I mean. I don't know Everything had to be. Did they just pin it together back then? I don't know. You're a good point. Yeah, they forged it, he forged it, they melted the metal, he made metal hot and put it into shape. Yeah, with his manly hands. I bet this guy had hands dude, um, and I know that, uh, um, this character is one of maybe one of your most favorites of the book. I don't know about you. I mean one of my most favorites of like fiction of all time, oh wow you know, like easily, easily up there with like, uh, I mean, you don't know that right, and in part one we're not spending that much time with sam hamilton.

30:50 Um, because he, you know, he really comes into himself once the book has an opportunity for him to dialogue with other characters and but what we kind of get in this part. one of him is this man who's come to america, who is trying to make a life for himself and he has this just desert of a ranch and a farm that with his bare hands he is just struggling against the earth to turn it into a living. And I think I think someone says something along the lines of like yeah, it was good for everything except for making a life off of. Yeah, or making a living off of it was like it's basically useless if you can't make a living off the land, it's basically useless.

31:37 You know what I mean. It's true. Well, this is true, but you just said a great point. I'm going to come back to okay, part four, all right, oh, okay versus making a living and making a life, which is a line that stuck out to me. That we're going to talk about. Because I think that old Samuel had a life, not much of a living Full life, but anyways, also, if you want to do some pre-reading before reading this, you know, read, you know the opening of the good book and specifically read chapter four of Genesis and the chapter before that which is the fall of man in the garden, and you will read three and four and that's going to also, I think, because also I'd say you have to read that before you read this, because it is really key to this book unfolding for you.

32:27 I mean, everyone knows, knows k and they know the can't able story but everybody does, and that everybody also kind of like it's, it's worth, like re-diving into, because, because steinbeck really does get into the nitty-gritty here you know and even like, and we'll get into like, sam, and we'll do more of the breakdown descriptions of these things, but, um, you know, and so essentially, samuel is almost the embodiment of like, the curse of man in his, in his, in his in his daily life of like well, I'd say in his physical life of just sweating and toil against the thorns and the dirt. Like that is his job, to fulfill that just every day.

33:08 Now, you know he he's a man who's kind of full of joy and mystery and all these things and and wisdom too, and so, which is maybe also a depth we can get into around the. Is there a gifting from god and the curse of man to go toil in the dirt Like? Is there things, good things, that come out of that for us too? I don't know, but anyways, the his wife, liza Hamilton, she's just this pinnacle of piety. Like and she is the um, you know, this would be the like classic old school religious grandmother who, no matter what you say or what you do, what action you take, she has a response to like what God would say about that.

33:56 And usually what God would say and what she would say are always the exact same thing, like meaning. However, she feels about what you're doing exact same thing like meaning, however, she feels about what you're doing. Just also that's how god feels about it. Like if I don't like the way you're doing this, god does not like the way you're doing this. And hard to please lady um, and kind of a smart, funny match for sam hamilton. Who is this guy who's really kind of? I don't even know if I don't think he necessarily believes in the whole deal as much as she does, he's just kind of like I think he's I I don't think he necessarily believes in the whole deal as much as she does, he's just kind of like I think he's. I think he at one point does say like he's, he's an atheist and maybe not even full-blown atheist as much as he's just like there is a question and he doubts uh, you know what the meaning or intention is behind some scripture?

34:43 yeah, he has. He has a little bit of a broader view. He's opened his mind a little more to you know, thinking a little more through all the stuff. And Liza's also too. Like you know, she's that type of piety and faith that like isn't as preoccupied with trying to understand it. Yeah, it's just it's just like I don't need to understand it. It's written in the good word. I just need to follow, and if I don't understand it, then it's not for me today. Yeah. And if God needs me to understand it, I will understand. It's just like one of those things of like damn, and Samuel's more of like a.

35:26 I mean, that's why I feel like I really relate to Samuel, Because I'm like I came to faith through those questions. Right, you know what I mean. For sure. Yeah, she's just the written in the stone thing. No need for philosophizing or theorizing or wondering. There's no wonder. Wondering is probably a sin, you know, to Eliza. Then there's the tribes of Samuel Hamilton. Yes, they pumped out the children, just as. God intended, yes, and so later in the book really gets into more of these kids as adults. It gets into more of their. You know. Later in the book really gets into more of these kids as adults. It gets into more of their.

36:07 You know particulars, but you know George is his firstborn. We don't get a lot on him. Will is the entrepreneurial kid. Tom is the dreamer, just like his dad, as far as an inventor sort of way. Joe is the lazy dreamer who just kind of found his way into not doing anything. It's hilarious, um, and joe's the only one who lies the mom lets off the hook because he's the baby boy of the family she's like you know, he can't go out in the fields and work. You know he, you know he can't do that, all this stuff. But and then, um, the daughters, um, you have Una, um, who we don't get a ton of ton on, but her life and, uh, you know, has an effect on Samuel's life.

36:57 Um, I think he said, I think it says like she was also very like intellectual, like someone that Samuel had a lot of conf confiding in, like the first of his children, that he could really bounce his philosophies and intellectualisms off. Yeah, yeah and then lizzie, she, uh, she got married, ran off to the city. She's done with this dirty ranch like um, uh, desi was just the kind of the joy of the party, really just kind of like. She's like that. I picture her. I picture her as like the fat ant which. So it's like they're just like I had this.

37:39 I had this aunt connie. She was a big lady, she's big lady, but she laughed so much, but she laughed and everybody laughed and everybody laughed. She was just a joy to be around and her laugh was contagious and like I know what connie looks like right now. Yeah, I know right it's just like hey and like she was. She was a fun like life of the party type and like just like um the I I think of her somewhere. I think of Desi Olive, who is actually based off of John Steinbeck's mother and Olive Hamilton was Steinbeck's mom Olive Steinbeck, yep.

38:21 And also Sam Hamilton was Steinbeckbeck's grandfather, who was that his real grandfather? and so there are. So there are some characters in here who he you know, either closely based or loosely based off of his family on this hamilton side yeah, olive is a. she's a little bit of just a little mini liza, though you know what I mean, like she kind of just becomes Liza Jr. She really does. And then there is Molly, and I don't even know that I remember much of anything from the stories of Molly she comes visits.

39:01 Yeah, I mean, she's just the youngest daughter who? Uh, just that's it. She moved to san francisco apartment in san francisco yeah that that's what we. You know, that's kind of the thing about her. So but uh, the hamiltons had a whole mess of kids and they we get more into their stories as we, as the story goes on, um yeah, and we'll kind of get into more of each of these characters as we break down some of these, you know, key points and themes throughout the book and throughout these, these chapters in part one oh, I think you're missing one there, bud, I think you're missing perhaps the most pivotal one. Oh yeah, that one got that. One got uh, um on, uh, to fix that in the notes there.

39:45 Okay, now it's over there. Yeah, my goodness, I didn't even want to think about her. I wish I'd never met the woman. Quite frankly, kathy Ames, the really our overarching protagonist. Protagonist, Depending on how you swing here but um, no, but uh, just a overarching antagonist of the story. Um, and she is um. She's this heartless manipulative no empathy, no empathy person, no sympathy. But can fake it? Yeah, Can certainly fake it, certainly fake it, and she's a true psychopath in like her, the way that she.

40:29 I don't think we've ever decided which one is which because I don't know if she's psycho or socio. Yeah, she's messed up, she's probably got she's probably both yeah, she could be both she's the one who has no empathy. She's the one who, like um, you know, runs the lawnmower over the cat that's buried in the lawn and just and somehow makes it your fault and doesn't laugh at. Like has no like. Yeah, there's no maliciousness, joy. I mean, she can be malicious, but there's no, like joy in the malice, right? yeah, it's just like I don't care. Yeah, and can I use this, can I? leverage it. Yeah, and she is evil and so evil, and we see that even out the gate, as she's a kid and so, um, her story.

41:16 She's very, um, prevalent throughout all the parts of you know the story and, as as she is this um, you know the story and as as she is this, um, yeah, she's the some, some would some have also compared her like to an aspect of Eve in the Bible, meaning you know like and uh, more modern interpretations of Eve. You know, like I'm going with some like, some traditional, very like, um, strict interpretations of eve, as like sin is in the world because woman tempted a man and so, like you know, we're not getting into, like the, what we believe about theology of men and women, but that's like she is that part, that, that part of eve in the interesting in this, in the you know, eve in this.

42:06 See, I guess when I first saw Kathy I didn't think of her as like an Eve character. I thought of her first initially as just incarnate the snake. I just thought she was the snake. Yeah, and I'd say she is more that, but like the as like also like a long time ago, people used to be a little bit harder on yeah people used to be like it was eve's fault. Right, yeah, like adam has no like uh um no, he's not culpable, even hardly right so like the or you know, or whatever. So, but yeah, she is, she is the snake, she is the apple, she is the, the temptation of eve, she is um and she's cane you know, so she is.

42:48 She's embodying all these things um in the characters throughout the book as well yeah, one thing, uh, pat, you know to just to mention here is like it's we don't, we don't know it until later in the book. But, like you know, this is this really does read off essentially in these early chapters as, like you know, if you were reading the intro to Numbers or the first chapter of Matthew and you're getting the lineage right of like all these people and then we get into their stories later on. But it's good to know the lineage and it's kind of why we want to talk about it here in the character corner too, because, like you wouldn't know, just from like this quick overview of them.

43:29 But, like you know, kathy kind of is like going through time at the same age as Adam and Charles, but all of the Hamilton kiddos were definitely probably younger, younger than either of them, kathy or Adam and Charles, right, and so it's kind of like we'll see as the story goes on. But, um, this is just to set up, like the characters and like give you this idea of like a very grand tale, right, you know. And that's like the first thing is that I was so confused in the first few chapters. I'm sure some people can relate to that.

44:11 I'm just like wait, who are we with now? Yeah, what's that guy about? I remember, like I didn't. I didn't remember, like no, I had to listen to like the chapters about olive and sam hamilton over a couple times before you even get to like a chapter where sam hamilton has dialogue. Right, you know what I mean. Just to try to keep track of, like okay, what's the context, what's the? context For sure, and because there's like five to seven like key or main characters also that aren't even in this. Yeah. And there's even more characters in that, but like there's, like you know, there's big time characters and bigger time characters yet to come.

44:52 I haven't even come on the scene yet part one, so this list isn't quite exhaustive. Right, well, before we hop into essentially just the themes in these early chapters and our thoughts on them, um and dialogue and over that, any other comments or thoughts about the characters at all, like you know anyone like in these early chapter that you just particularly really enjoyed, like the chapters following along with them, or like really engaged you yeah, I think that you know and I'm trying to think in these early chapters because it's funny going back and for how long this book was like. This could have been like four books almost in a way, or, like you know, it's like the the character of cyrus was really interesting to me in that I, I was.

45:35 I want to make sure I don't become that guy, in whatever area it is yeah, for real like, um, a fake expert in something and or you know, like, like something I'm not and someone who, like, pushes things upon my children, like that, you know, is my own vision for them. And realizing, like, living a whole life pursuing my own thing with not even really knowing my kids, or without even really like them knowing what they want in their life, my kids or without even really like them knowing what they want in their life. Like so, like that was like a lesson to me, of like it stood out character to me of like it for cyrus's story, um especially since you know you got two boys. I do, I have two sons, and so I was really like probably, you're probably like damn, I hope I'm not forcing my boys to be something they don't want to be for sure and then obviously like then you know, the key thing here was being like the conversations and the story that happens around adam and charles you know, as boys is just you know that was.

46:33 It was a gripping tale. You know that that was. That was a um, something I really latched on to, as well as having two sons being like there's parts of this like I do not want that for my sons and there's like encounters these boys are having that I know my sons will have in a similar form or fashion that I hope to handle well. Do you think you can see right now in your boys already, which one will be protecting the other, regardless of the age? difference. This is the I was trying to not like do too much um um projecting of these characters on my sense, but at the same time I can see it. My boys are so different.

47:14 One is more serious and emotional and the other one is more funny and violent. He laughs everything off and he'll just whack, he'll just get in a fight real fast, and the other one's like kind of more, a little more thoughtful and serious and emotional. It's just like I just these things were like, I was like, yeah, and that's where, like I don't know how it will all play out, but it's like you do just project a little bit Sure, like little traits, little things, whatever you know, and I wonder about how this will be and I hope this. You know, you have to be careful to not be stressed out about things too.

47:56 But I'm also like what are the things I'm looking out for some of these things in my sons, to steer them away from being like some of these kids have turned out right no kidding, yeah, I think too. like, if I'm being honest, the character I I enjoyed following the most was kathy. Oh yeah, you know, kathy's introduced to us as a child and like the opening line about Kathy is, you know, it just says like she was born not human, like something is missing that most that all other humans have. It's absent in Kathy and it's just like, rather than being like here she is, as a fully developed, manipulative, capable, powerful, cunning woman.

48:46 It being like here she is as a fully developed, manipulative, capable, powerful, cunning woman. It's like, how does that thing come to exist? And like, especially in a time and day, like you know, back then, where, like you know, most people just flip of a coin if they get TB or not. You know what I mean. And so it's like one of those things like where I, just I, as I was going, you just realize how sinister she is and like there's just nothing redeemable about her as a child, and you're like it's the antichrist, bro, smother it like you know, like it's so. It's weird because this book was written, you know, uh, in 1950s, but it feels like it touches on all the real horror of like fearing a unpredictable, violent child, right and the author doesn't all the.

49:36 The author leaves a lot of the leaves room for the other characters to develop or change, but this one there's no room. No, he starts off saying it's a monster, it's bad, it's evil, like out, like he said, out the get-go, and so it's like that's where there's no reason for the reader to hope for like redemption yeah, exactly right, like it's like he, he wrote it he wrote it in stone in the it's like it's done it's done, it is written you're right. No, that's really good, it's like it's. It's a, no matter what happens, it's not gonna change. Kathy is poison. It's a black train that's left the building station, you know and like.

50:16 So, uh, and then you know one concept I want to get into as we go through this and we'll I'll bring it one ringer back a few times. Is they talk about in this book? They say like, like it's not in his nature. What's in your nature and something even like a, and so it's interesting to me is like. In this book it's almost too like. While I said there's room for characters to change, at the same time there isn't a lot of like, full circle, like change necessarily in characters, whereas, like what their nature is is what it mostly remains. And so this like is your nature? Mean meanness, is it passivity?

50:57 Is it kindness, is it cruelty, is it merciful, is it ambitious, is it? you know content, and Steinbeck writes these characters like with a nature and they typically stick to their nature throughout, like, and we see these characters through lifetimes, yeah, and so the, the nature, um, you know, it's kind of like a in some senses, because there's another concept we'll get into is a, you know, will you like, will you have the choice to say, maybe about something at the same time, steinbeck argues yes, but he also says no, because these the nature of some of these people. So we'll get into that too, as, like, it kind of breaks down too.

51:38 But that's where that kathy was just set in stone. Yeah yeah, no, you're right. Um, all right, going hopping into themes from this first one, uh, and like they kind of bounce around in the first part across a couple different chapters. The first, the first part of the book doesn't feel as linear across time as the other ones, but but I think chapter one and five give this idea, this, this image in kind of allegorical context, that like the Salinas Valley, the Salinas Valley is this place just outside of Eden, like it is just outside of a perfect garden.

52:30 You know what I mean. And like the salinas valley can. All the beauty of the world and the land and toiling and you know, from melons and rock and dirt and rivers and fruit on trees, all of it can be seen in the Salinas Valley. But also the desert of toiling, the earth and bramble and weeds and heat, all of that can be also seen. And it really makes me, like I truly did when they were describing the Salinas Valley. It really did make me think of, like, what did it look like when adam and eve walked out of the garden?

53:11 What was out there? Right, and I think it's the salinas valley, you know what I mean. Like that's the imagery it struck in my mind. Um, and like I said earlier, like when you were talking about the, the long list of the children that the hamiltons have, like it is like this idea in the chapters of like here is, you know, we read in the Bible If you read the first chapter of Matthew, you're going to get a lineage of Jesus Christ. There's going to be a lot of names and you're never going to. You're not going to, it's going to be just the names, not the stories about any of them. But if you go read other chapters in the Bible and other books of the Bible, you'll get the full story of David. You'll get the full story of a lot of these people who are in the lineage of Christ.

53:56 And so it really does feel like chapters one and five are pretty much just like here it is and we'll get into their stories. But here's who you should know about and this is the source and the point of it. Here it is and we'll get into their stories, but here's who you should know about, and like this is, this is the source and the point of it. Um, I don't know any. Any thoughts on that before I move on. No, yeah, because I think, like in in a book, lots of times, like with the title, you're waiting for it to kind of show itself. You're waiting for it to be like ah, we are just east of eden. Yeah, exactly and like, and he, in this way, he does, just come out and say it through his writing, right, like you're saying this, like um the garden of eden being a place that it's always the fruit is always ripe on the vine, you know, you know, and there's always um a spring, or a well to drink from, there's green, greenery, it's calm, you know, whereas he describes Salinas as this place, where you sometimes it's green, a lot of times it's not, for 30 years.

54:58 It can be a desert Right, but then when it's the rainy season, it does feel like an unending bountiful garden Right, and then he, and so it does. You are just, you're outside of the garden there. And an interesting line he talks about too is where how people, how quickly they forget. And he says when it was, you know, during these times, when it was dry, people would forget the good times, and when it was good times they'd forget that it could get dry again. And I think that speaks to the nature of man. See this in the Bible a lot Like, if you, you know, looking at the Israelites in the desert wandering around.

55:43 They're constantly forgetting about what's good and what's bad. They're out there like starving, sick, getting bit by snakes, it sucks, and they're like they forget that they have a god that's like watching out for them and then god comes and gives them food and protection and heals them all, and then it's gravy for a little while and they're like they forget that it can be bad again and they just, and then, oh, now it's getting bad again, like, and so just this, like this thing about this nature of man and how us and ourselves, we just forget so quickly about those things that stuck out to me when he was describing this place and that is a big part of, even like being outside of eden is being man in this cycle where a lot of times it's dry and sometimes it's good yeah, I, I'm just looking at images here of the salinas valley too.

56:29 It's in california, for anyone wants to know. It kind of like ends down in king city, it looks like and goes all the way up to monterey, um, but it is just agricultural, you know that, that's all. These images are just green, brown, foothill mountains with just rows of crops underneath the blue sky, and I mean it's a fertile valley full of, you know, fertile soil and water and rivers and creeks, and it looks as close to, in my mind, like you can think of, like a garden of eden, like, and it kind of, I think, like I think it does look similar to, like you know, middle east, uh, like farms and like valleys that I've seen, yeah, um and mediterranean type and stuff too.

57:22 Yeah, for sure but um, but um, yeah. So chapter two, you know we start diving into Sam Hamilton and his lineage and all that Um and uh. I kind of think like um in my mind, the way I see it, sam Hamilton is postured as uh like the best man of his time. Uh, there's a verse in the bible, um in genesis, that refers to noah as uh good like he was. He was uh, not not the best, but he was good um, in accordance to his day. And it's like this idea of like. Amongst all of the evil that was in the world during the time of Noah and all of the fallen man, noah was considered good among them.

58:11 He might not be considered good among our standards today, right, or whatever like that, but like Noah was good and the best among the people he was living amongst. And Sam Hamilton to me feels like this, living amongst. And Sam Hamilton to me feels like this. He feels like you know the Noah, or even like maybe a little bit of a Moses figure that you know he is bringing life into this world. Like you said, he's references like this deeply loved, cherished member of the community, a good father, a good husband. But I think something that was really key is like he delivered a ton of babies, like he knew how to deliver babies, and like people like it was kind of referenced, like every single person in salinas valley for you know a good amount, like for 40 years or whatever knew sam hamilton brought me into this world.

58:57 So I think there's like this kind of biblical idea of like he's he's a he's a little bit of like, like I said earlier, a Melchizedek figure. Like he comes from Ireland, from this land, beyond no one knows his origin. Is he of God? You know what I mean? And I think that's kind of like the not outrightly stated but alluded in. Like Sam Hamilton is this larger-than-life good man and it's almost like it's unarguably good. Like, unless we found some kind of secret context, that sam had a bad habit or something. It's just like kathy, like it's established this is probably the best guy you're gonna see in the book, right? Um? And then I do think of liza as an ebenezer.

59:38 Like she's just this staff, this rod. Direct connection to God. That is constantly the direct connection to like the Lord's will in Samuel's life and there's a point in the book later on. But like Sam just doesn't know what to do and he might not have the gumption to do what he thinks needs to be done. And Liza lets word of God come from her lips, where she turns and whips onto Samuel and tells him, like word of God, come from her lips, where she turns and whips onto Samuel and tells him, like you will do this or you will not come home, and that's all Samuel needed. You know what I mean. So, like, I do think Liza is like this idea of like an Ebenezer, um, and then, uh, this idea, this theme of like work and wealth, and uh, you know, uh, as the book goes on, there's a lot of discussion, of discussion, but like what is it?

1:00:32 Very much established like the hamilton family's poor and they work hard, um, and they work, doing everything they can to make a living, whether it's making money from doing trade with the blacksmith stuff, farming, or it's like making a living because you brought someone's kid into this world safe and so they give you some food or a discount or clothes or whatever right, and so it's like this idea, um, that, like the hamiltons work hard and truly, they kind of fulfill, you know, uh, the curse of man from genesis in that, like you will toil from the earth for everything you know and like. Even though the hamiltons kind of live on a desert thing, they seem to have everything they need, but not more you know what I mean.

1:01:18 um, before I hop on to the main cain and abel thing from between adam and Charles theme that we get here, part one, any other thoughts on the Hamiltons or kind of like that? illusion. No, yeah, I think I think you're right on with that, because the I do love what you're saying about Liza being this immovable rod for Samuel, because it is like it allows him to go go out and be the philosopher and the wanderer, but he doesn't go get lost in the world. Yeah, you know, but he can go, you know he can go talk about it.

1:01:58 You can go see what's around exactly you can go check it out and so, and the way that, yeah, they do, it's just they have a huge ranch. I mean, what would be so? interesting 40 acres, I think, is what it said, the Hamilton Ranch. I think it was like 4,000. Was it 4,000? Oh damn this was old school ranch. It was like man, it was like a. So it'd be hilarious to see what the value of the the hamilton ranch would be today. And saluting all the assets built on it oh yeah, it'd be insane, truly insane. But yeah, he, uh, he was destined to just uh toil with his hands, um, but good things came from it and as we get to know him more, we see the, the value that he brings to those around him, because I think, yeah, he was like you said.

1:02:48 He was such a community staple for the, for everybody yeah, um, all right. Going on to adam and charles, uh, so I think the biggest thing, the whole book. Of course, right, it says it in the description, but like there are multiple Cain and Abel's in this book and they're not gonna have as clear names as like A and C, um, but our first yeah and I and our first like very clearly stated one is Adam and Charles. Um and uh, you know, we see that, uh, adam pretty much right from the get-go. Before we learn anything about Adam's character he's actually like, and I felt my heart kind of feeling this way towards him while I was listening to the dialogue.

1:03:34 It's like he's got every reason to be kind of jaded Because he's probably going to grow up in a home where he's not his dad's favorite. His dad, cyrus, gives him whiskey on a rag to shut him up as a baby. Oh yeah it like yeah, it's like clear Cyrus wants nothing to do with that in the beginning the mother's funeral, yeah yeah, and Adam, you know he, the mom in the home, is not his mother and she knows it and he knows it. And charles is clearly more athletic um, it's his younger brother, uh, more athletic, more decisive, um, more successful in following, like the the um instructions of his father to be more soldier, like, and things like that.

1:04:22 And so we have like immediately like this idea that I think, like I thought it was gonna flip them. You know adam was gonna be the more jaded one, resentful one, but it's not. Adam is like, like you said, he's kind of like this he's a little bit of wet bread dude. He, he's not very. He doesn't stand up for himself. Well, charles is constantly standing up for him and beating up anyone who tries to bully him. Um, and adam just is okay, he's very okay with not being uh in the limelight. Um, in fact, he seems to almost not want it. He wants to shirk any attention that is directed to him from his father. And ultimately, we see that Adam does fulfill the able role and that he comes and prevents a very simple gift to his father that his father loves.

1:05:14 On his father's birthday one year, he brings his father a puppy that he just found out in the woods. It was like in the woodpile, and he finds a puppy and brings it in and his father cherishes it and loves it and is delighted. And Charles brings his father a watch, a knife, a knife. It was a knife that he had sold. What are they referred to it as? They don't say money, they say it was like labor. It was like bundles of wood that Charles had chopped yeah, some quarts of wood that he'd chopped. It was a lot of work. Yeah, it was like 10 quarts of wood or whatever that he had.

1:05:56 He calls them something else, but they're called chips or something like that, I can't remember. But essentially he's toiled for this, this, and his father just takes the knife, thinks Charles, puts it in a drawer and like. He's like. But Adam, this dog, and like so immediately like we see Charles getting resentful and even at one stage Adam we see, beats Charles in a game and Charles Charles usually wins. Charles almost always wins, having never lost to Adam in anything athletic before never having to share the limelight, snaps and beats Adam up quite a bit and then later on, you know, cyrus goes for a walk with Adam.

1:06:39 This is, you know, while they're probably 15 or 16, it should be mentioned. That night Adam hid in the bushes and his brother came back out hold on. You're probably 15 or 16, it should be mentioned. That night adam hid in the bushes and his brother came back hold on you're jumping way too far in, you're. You're jumping way too hard for me, all right, um, so adam goes for a walk with cyrus. Oh right, right, yep yep, okay, thank you and so it's cyrus is telling adam like, hey, I, I you know, I believe in you, I respect you, like you're gonna be a soldier, you're gonna be a good soldier and there's a great future in it for you. And Adam kind of gets the like first time in his life to Billy be like, well, I'm just not really sure I want to be a soldier and I'm gonna be cut out for it.

1:07:20 You know, um, but the biggest issue is that Charles isn't there to hear this and all charles sees is that dad's going off on a walk with his favorite and, um, no matter what I do, adam's gonna steal dad from me and cyrus kind of tells him, tells adam like he's like you're a, your brother will never be a soldier. Yeah, he's just. He's just not gonna. He's not got the guts for it. Not the guts, but like the makings of it. Yeah, he's not made for it, and that's all charles wants to be yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right, that is. That is all charles wants to be is to be a soldier, and not to be a soldier but to just glorify his dad um because then the own what you know, when the onus gets put on adam now to have to hold that kind of secret, and that's what tears him up in this next, like you know, culminating part you're getting to.

1:08:08 Yeah. So, like you know, charles confronts Adam and you know they're going out, and it's the classic confrontation, right? The gifts have been given and clearly God is displeased with one. And not only that, but God seems to be showing favoritism to one and telling the other, like you'll never be what this one is. And so that's, like, you know, the illusion that we get here with Charles and Adam, and Charles confronts Adam, says what did dad talk to you about? And Adam's hesitant to tell him because Adam doesn't want to. You know, break his heart and be the bearer of bad news. Like dad said're never gonna be a soldier and I have to go be one in order to honor the family.

1:08:48 Um, and in avoiding it and dancing around it, charles snaps and totally loses his cool and then, like probably one of the most tense things, like scenes of the book I don't know if there was there's maybe one or two points that were more full of tension, but this one was crazy tension for me. Listen to it. I was like oh, my gosh, yeah Is like. Like I know the story I can't enable, so I shouldn't know what's about to happen, but is it going to happen? Um, charles is beating the snot out of Adam and leaves Adam on the road to go back to the uh, to the farm. And Adam knows that Charles is just out of control, lost his mind in anger, and he crawls over to the side of the road to hide in the weeds growing in the ditch off the road and hide in the shallow ditch water.

1:09:40 And of course this is probably like 1880s, 1890s. And so Charles comes back, can't see anything outside of moonlight. There's probably one straight lamp every 100 yards. You know what I mean If that. And so Charles lights a matchbook and all Adam sees is, through the, the silhouettes of the cattails and the weeds in the ditch, while he's holding his breath, all he can see is just the flickering of that one lone match and Charles having to relight one every like few minutes out of the box. And he sees that Charles has got a hatchet up to his head, looking, searching for Adam in the dark, and he ends up wandering down the road far.

1:10:31 And Adam, you know, returns home and tells you know, he doesn't really actually have to tell his father anything, I think and his father just grabs a shotgun to go find and he tells Alice, his wife. He says I'm going to go, I'm going to kill him, you know. Fine, and he tells alice, his wife, he says I'm gonna go. I'm gonna kill him, you know, because he believes that charles just ruined his opportunity to be glorified by his sons and yeah and like and that out son, he knows, just try to kill his other son I don't even think it's the. I don't think he's trying to I don't think it's vengeance, because charles almost killed adam per se. It's not like I have to kill Charles because he almost killed Adam. It's I have to kill this one before he takes away the one that could bring me glory, the one that could be the payoff for all I've worked for.

1:11:19 Yeah, you know, I think that's really like. What it is is like I won't let this, I won't let all I've worked for get lost. It's not about protecting the sun. Um, ultimately, though, cyrus doesn't find Charles, adam is being cleaned up and, uh, he's drafted essentially he drafts himself, but kind of under quite a bit of pressure into the armed forces to go do essentially, like, um, the native American wars and the westward expansion. And, uh, he leaves before Charles is found and returns back to the farm and uh, we kinda, you know, have this um culmination, I will say, of like a of events occurring and we get our uh time jump again, of like a of events occurring and we get our time jump again.

1:12:12 Um, but we see that, like in this chapter, after adam leaves, cyrus also leaves. I don't remember alice dying, but alice like then I don't think she dies then, when cyrus leaves the dc, but charles returns and he's toiling the land. He's toiling the farm, just he's toiling the farm, just like the curse of man. And it's like the curse of man is fully here. Because now Adam's gone, cyrus is gone, god has left Cain, right Cain, and now Cain just toils in the fields and his, and he sees the, the, the sickness of the one he loves, his, his mother, taking her away day by day. And all Cain can do, all Charles can do, is write letters to Adam and eventually they seem to like like Adam, it says, adam finds fondness and excitement in the letters from his brother, eventually, and so it's like they forgive without having to request it and give it.

1:13:06 Um, but it is interesting to just see like all he does, like steinbeck doesn't miss a beat, like charles's future is clear here. He will toil the earth forever and he's going to be alone and he will never be in the presence of his god again. You know what I mean. And then, on this train of thought, as time is passing here, one day and this was my favorite part, this was the part where I was jumping out of my pants with excitement I was like, oh wow, that's really well done. One day Charles is toiling in the farm and he's writing this in a letter to Adam, detailing what occurred.

1:13:48 And he's telling him you know, I was trying to remove the stone, cause he's just got to plow the fields, man, and every year there's more stones to remove from the farm as he expands and land Um, and he was wedging on this rock and in the effort to move it, he slams his head on the stone and the stone cuts open his head like deep gash and he goes home and by this point his mother's dead, alice is dead, and as he's home, he's trying to take care of this wound but it doesn't heal right and it looks infected and the doctor's concerned and it's characterized in the letter of this ugly black line and he says if I just had ash, like those catholics do, it looked like a cross and it's like, just like this idea of like holy smokes, like what, a?

1:14:40 What a well, like done, subtle, but clearly as well, obvious mark of cane. You know, and like this mark is, you know charles talks about. He's like I can't hide it with a hat because it's on my forehead, and I can't hide it with my hair, no matter how much I try to like pull my hair over it, like, no matter what, you can see this dark mark, scar, and uh, everyone sees it and he knows everyone sees it. And we see like charles lives alone, like he never takes a wife. No friends come. Sometimes some of the the whores in town will come and stay at the farm for a couple days before he kicks them out. But like, just as like the curse of cain is, like you know everyone will know if they strike you down, like it will come back to them.

1:15:26 But like everyone will see it clearly on you that you are marked right and like no one is going to want to hang out with Cain. You know they know him as the one who killed his brother and like that's just what we see here with Charles, and I think it's the perfect first allegory of Cain and Abel, while also keeping it fresh, right, like Adam's, not dead Metaphorically. Adam died and he became new because before he was even fully healed, he was enlisted and now he's the life of a soldier in manhood, totally separate and segregated from everything he knew as a child. Like the atom of the farm died, and now we're kind of moving into the next area.

1:16:10 But, um, before I go any really further into like after the military, I just kind of want to see, like your thoughts and how you felt like, how are you reacting, you know, to this, as like you're realizing like oh, he's really going for the cain and Abel allegory, yeah it was like he. Just I thought it would maybe be like way more, have to be way more parsed out. You know where you have to really break down some things. It's like nope, there it is. That's the thing. And while he's breaking as he's doing it so clearly, like you were saying, that moment of tension is like is adam gonna survive this? Yeah, like, is he about to get hacked up? yeah, like I don't know, like yeah, like I don't know what's gonna happen in the.

1:16:54 And then also, at the same time, you do have this the way that charles talks about the knife and the pup, like he just always keeps saying like that knife, like why didn't he? Just always keeps saying like that knife, like why didn't he just use the knife, why didn't he like, why didn't he use it once? Like he didn't even use it. Yeah, he, I found it in the drawer. He didn't take it to Washington with him. Yeah, like you know, like all that stuff and like it's like he just but they gave that damn dog a medal. Yeah, and it just like. It was like and it was, it was. It was hurt to watch it too, Because he was like, yeah, he did work hard to give his dad that knife, you know, and he was like man, and so the the madness is relatable.

1:17:40 Like you can empathize with Charles, you can see him just in this like cyclical frustration, anger, blame and it's like I get it. I get why he's mad no, yeah, and that was uh um, and this, these basically one, one or two chapters covered, you know, end up covering years, you know, in a way, and so the uh um, the way that steinbeck writes that scene where Charles is coming out to him with the matches, it's like you're watching a movie. Oh yeah. Yeah, you can see it right there, for sure. Yeah, what did you think about the mark? Like, did you know that that letter? When he started talking about it?

1:18:21 Like did you think? Like, did you see it telegraphed? Really well, because I didn't. Until he talked how he couldn't hide it. And once he said he couldn't hide it I was like, oh my gosh this is the mark, the mark of Cain. Yeah, it wasn't until then that I was like that I was. He was, yeah, march, march, like Cain in that sense. Yeah, I didn't see it till later too, but um, and the fact that it came through his struggle, you know, in the land, I was really glad it wasn't supernatural, because I literally asked myself I was like I get it, they're cain and abel, but like how are they going to have a marked without it being like supernatural? right, you know what I mean right and because, and also I don't know if the does the bible speak to what the mark was.

1:19:03 I think it's very just a mark, super a. I think it's very Just a mark, a mark. Yeah, it's like who knows what that? So we don't know what it is. But yeah, the mark of Cain, and we'll see that continue to show up as we move through the book. Yeah, this one I kind of like too. I thought it was not super expanded upon, but just like there's a decent amount of time set for it. But Adam is discharged from the army, he meets with his father. His father tells him to like you know, I can get you into West Point, I can give you these things, and I was like I just don't want those things, and reenlists again for another term.

1:19:46 And then after that he's like okay, I'm actually done with this, this sucks. And when he leaves he just wanders aimlessly and he doesn't have a home to return to, he doesn't have a people. He just wanders aimlessly and he actually gets quote unquote enslaved right, quote-unquote enslaved right. He become. He gets arrested for just wandering and gets put onto a chain game to be, you know, slave labor for building roads. And, uh, as soon as he serves that term of six months, they release him and arrest him in the same day and put him, give him another six months yeah and um it. It's very, I think, allegorical to the Jews in the desert roaming for 40 years, because it really does feel that way.

1:20:34 It feels to me that he is roaming and wandering without purpose and aimless and not following the guidance of, like God. Cyrus telling him like hey, this would be good for you, I could set you up, I could establish you. And he's like, no, I don't want that. And eventually, you know, he reaches out to Charles and says, hey, can you send me a hundred bucks so I can get home? Yeah, and you know, and charles, like, to his credit, like charles does, um, and once adam is home with charles, uh, charles reveals that while adam was uh serving time, cyrus had died and left adam and charles each half of a one hundred thousand dollar inheritance, um, which, of course, is a fortune in that day and age.

1:21:28 I have no idea what that's like be today, but it's insane, like it's a lot of money. Charles and Adam, though, like they have this conflict, you know, not between each other, but just within themselves, because they believe, like Charles reveals to Adam, he did his research and really looked into things and realized all the stories that dad told as a kid. As they were kids. They're all lies. Dad wasn't there for it. He couldn't have been there for it, he just knew what had happened at these battles. But like he was a fraud and therefore the concern is like, is the money legit and is it good to take an inheritance that we didn't work for and was possibly stolen, which I think in of itself is like a I'm not saying it's specifically a biblical question, but, like you know, like God promises them a land.

1:22:23 They got to go into that land. They take that land from people who are living in the land and like I think that's kind of like a little bit of the wrestle here. You know, what I mean Is like wrestling with this inheritance and is it, is it? Is it ours now? Is it right to take it? Should we do it? What are the consequences? Because really it's not like about right or wrong necessarily. It's more like charles is concerned. Someone would be mad and come and like take it back or, you know, hurt them or give them criminal charges for having it. I think I think this is actually one of those parts where charles like morality does come through, where he is like, he is kind of like. Charles is not a purely evil character, he's like, he's like, and I think there's a little bit of like it's from a liar, I won't take it.

1:23:09 Yeah, like it's like, I won't take it stolen and adam's just like. I don't think he'd do that well, he's like, I don't. I didn't love our father, but I thought he was a. I thought he was a great man like he achieved lot. And the line there that he throws is um uh, charles says how can you have faith in him if you didn't even love him? So I thought it was an interesting, uh, deeper thing for like people who say they follow God, to like think about you know, how can you say, how can you have faith in him if you didn't even love him? Yeah. Um of faith in him if you didn't even love him. Yeah, um, and that's one of the big conflicts between the two of them, where charles does did love him and adam he didn't you ever watch that show?

1:23:53 modern family? uh some dude. Okay, there's one scene later in the seasons where all right, so the whole show phil, dumphy and his son I can't remember his son's name, maybe max, um, no, luke, it's luke. Uh, luke idolizes phil and they almost like share a brain with, like just how in sync they are, his father and son. But something happens I can't remember what it was and phil, like he just you know, he falls short in some way or another. And luke is just like is that the sound of my idol falling off of his pedestal? And I kind of feel like that's what's going on with Charles here, like his idol, his father, who he loved and worshipped, has fallen off the pedestal and he's never going back up on it.

1:24:41 You know what I mean. And now Charles is just second guessing everything. Yeah, going back up on it, you know, I mean, and like now, charles just is second guessing everything, yeah, the uh, and when this money comes into play, what's interesting too with them is for biblical context, you also have like this, um, because all these characters while they're also canada, like there's so many characters who are they're adam and eve encountering god, or they're like, or they're also like there's so many characters who are they're Adam and Eve encountering God or they're like, or they're or they are like, um, adam encountering, like the, the, the curse of man, or whatever. Yeah, like and all these things and so like. In this case too, you do have like these two people have to have their, their choosing, like, once again, this is like this hundred thousand dollars which was, I guess I just did, it was like 3.4 million nice modern day right, it's like not a bad chunk of change yeah um, also is like the kind of like the apple again too, like you'll never have to toil the earth again.

1:25:33 Yeah, it's like it's a little bit of like the apple again too. You'll never have to toil the earth again. Yeah, it's a little bit like the apple coming back again where Charles is, like I don't know if I want that. Adam's actually the one who's more nonchalant about it, yeah. Right before they get back together too. One of the letters that Charles writes to Adam it was so intense and it was so well done where he's writing out his thoughts and all of his feelings and these things and you're kind of seeing like he's jumping in and out of actively writing a letter and then just writing his thoughts as he goes, right before Adam comes back.

1:26:15 Can I? I just want to give credit to Richard Poe. Richard Poe, he narrated Blood Meridian, oh yeah. But dude, when he is narrating these letters of Charles and the manic, yeah, like the manic fear or frustration that comes through, it was so good, dude, like it. It like literally pulled me out of whatever I was doing and I was like I just was reading Charles's letter and I could hear his voice in my head. You know what I mean. It was so strange. Yeah, and and cause, and we don't know how much time has passed while he's writing it. The the way it's being written, the font and the intensities are changing and the and and he's going in and out of hey, it'd be nice if you ever came home.

1:26:56 And also that you know that darn knife. He just can't get rid of the knife out of his mind and this did lend to like some mental health issues Charles has, or something Like you're saying there's some sort of manic thing going on within him. Something left undone. Is that a line from it? It's just no, there's just something like it's there's something left undone, or something that he said and it's like, um, and it's like this, even the nagging feeling of if, just at the end of your day, when you know there was something kind of left I think that's how he describes the farm in one of the letters. It's like the context of like it's never done, like he has a lady come and clean it and but like I think he does describe it like the haunting emptiness of the farmhouse on the farm property, of just knowing like something's not done.

1:27:51 Right, yeah, just. And then there's the thing of like knowing what needs to be done. Then there's the worst thing, that's like there's more work or not knowing. You're not knowing what it is. I don't know, I don't know what it is but I know there's more work and I don't know what's been left undone. But it's driving me crazy, Um, and you know, from there the uh, they kind of they decide to keep the money and they start to, but they don't really spend it. No, they kind of just Go ahead Because they just they kind of expand the farm with it some, but they don't really maybe use it to its full potential in the moment, and there's always an argument about what to do with it or how to use it.

1:28:37 We should buy up that next neighbor's farm. We should go travel. Yeah, why would we travel? We have a farm here that needs running. Yeah, you could 3.4 mil modern. Yeah, bro, you could hire somebody to help out on a farm. I'm just saying. But that's the thing I think is like, I think Cain's curse, I think Charles is cursed Like Charles cannot leave. Yeah, charles's curse is that like, regardless of like it being a quote, unquote, real God from heaven, curse on Charles. It's a psychological I can't leave, I can't leave, I can't leave man, yeah, yeah, like father never told me I could go to be a soldier and I, if I leave, who's gonna tend the?

1:29:25 Who's gonna tend the soil? Who's gonna tend the earth? Um, and you just see that too, though, like the wanderingness, I think again of like, you see, of like the nation of israel, the jews, like it's just like they. Adam wanders away, he's not much help on the farm and he goes for months at a time down to south america, comes back when he's like burnt out it. Just like, charles, we should spend the money on something. It's like also just made me think like, dude, imagine like you got 10 bucks, you take 10 bucks out of your 100 000 or whatever, and you could just go to south america for like a month, like come back to han and be like all right, charles, we should like, we should spend that money on something else, you know what I mean, um, but it did feel like just like that, like Adam wanders and avoids the curse to work, not that he's exempt from it, but just that he avoids it because he doesn't want to do it Right and he doesn't see the need to it because he sees the inheritance.

1:30:29 Maybe he knows like there's a promised land, right, he knows there's a land of milk and honey, why would we sit here and toil? And Charles is just under the curse man, he and he, he will never leave it. Um, but I'd like you, since you kind of were working on this section, introduce us our next cane. Yeah, so we already. You know we talked about her some, but this is the part of the book where we learn about Kathy Ames and she's introduced Literally chills, dude, when I think about Kathy, and it says some people were born monsters and that she was one.

1:31:09 And you know she really does embody greed, lust and pride. You're going picking some of the seven deadly sins out there. I think those are the three I'm labeling her with oh, the big ones Greed, lust and pride. And so, in her story from a super young age, we see her using the tools she has and the tools she's going to use for the rest of her life, which you know, um, is the power of manipulation through, you know, female sexuality seduction, um, and at the you know, using the you know, uh, male curiosity and weakness, um to um to get what she wants, and not exempting men from from these things either.

1:32:03 Men can do the same thing. But she is the Venus fly trap. Oh yeah. You know. So, like she, the uh, she has this thing out there, put out there and like a fly to it, just the curiosity and the weakness, and it'll consume them well and she you know it might not be stated necessarily, I mean I think it is a little bit in this part she like recognizes when people aren't flies, whether they're men or women. But she like the venus fly trap analogy I think works because, like the Venus, flytrap will never catch a worm and it doesn't want to, it only wants to go for the flies and she knows who the flies are and the people who aren't flies.

1:32:47 That can't just be immediately reeled in you know, she avoids and she has, like almost like a, an itching, like fear, like sometimes the way it's described for her, like the way she feels about a person feels to me like you know, any demon movie you see, where someone holds up a crucifix to a devil. Like the way she like, like emotionally and physically reacts to people that she realizes aren't prey. But like are problems because they see through her. Yeah, they see through her pretty face and then she's described as a beautiful, attractive person and very. I saw anya taylor joy when they described her.

1:33:29 They're like the blonde hair, the very petite figure, like the smaller upper bust area, but still voluptuous, like kind of like feminine health figure. Anya Taylor-Joy is the she played Furiosa she's in, oh yeah. You know what I'm talking about yeah, Um and so like, uh, and also like Anya Taylor-Joy I think, I've seen play some pretty evil psychotic characters so it's like one of those things I'm like I can really see her bringing kathy to life on the big screen in the. Uh, yeah, because she had this, she has the it thing that like whatever it is, like that people don't know why.

1:34:10 They're just like the dead are attracted to her and the other stuff, but like um and with using, you know, manipulation and specifically through, like sexual acts in many cases. Uh, it's as a child, yeah, as a child, as a child there's. There's stories of her doing it as a kid and no one like I think steinbeck is being very transparent with her, and her character. There is no one who did something to her. Right there there's. This is no one else's fault, right like there's no man or woman who abused her. And then now she knows these things and manipulates it like kathy is just evil and Kathy knows she has something and that is her feminine charm that can, or her childlike charm, then, that she can take advantage of manipulate people and it's.

1:35:05 It's horrifying and repulsive at like the way she's described age wise and the power that she sexually holds over some people yeah, yeah and the uh, it's all a transactional act it's emotionless. It's just a means to an end, to gain what she wants, which is typically, you know, power, money you know, or maybe even just entertainment right, right, like I think the school teacher right and I think, yeah, I think yeah, it's just like. It's like this, like to be, that's like power and control. You know, she just wanted I think she just wanted to see if she could get him to kill himself. Yeah, because, like she, I don't think she gained anything from it.

1:35:46 Right, like it's not illicitly stated that her or this teacher had physical intimacy, but it's clear he was madly in love with her romantically. Yeah, and he hangs himself one day before he can confess to anything. Yeah, he shoots him, she shoots himself oh, he shoots himself, yeah, okay, I can't remember if he shot himself and he was. And I think a thing to note about it too was he had been to divinity school. He didn't get in and he wanted to return to divinity school. So there is this thing of like this, this guy who's trying to get away from it, to get back to the right thing in a sense.

1:36:27 You know, maybe she was just like no, if I can't have you to play with right, you don't get to go off and be with them and so the and she one thing we see her do throughout this whole thing she plays the long game. She'll be who she needs to be in front of other people until she gets, whether it's days, weeks, months, years, she'll play the role, be the character, fall in line until it's time and the uh, and, like I've seen before, where you know she is, mm.

1:37:11 Hmm, you know kane, once again, um as well, and the you know I did. You, did you see it coming that she was gonna kill her parents? I thought she might, because they hit her. Did both of them hit her, or did just? her dad, I think her dad like she tried to run away, right, yeah, and he like, he like gave her a spanking with a belt once, yeah, yeah, and he was like god that I don't know that. I'm sorry like you know like neither. Her parents were very formidable, confident people, right, and they weren't. They weren't used to discipline, and so when they did that, and she just the next day was Goody Two-Shoes' best daughter of the year.

1:37:57 Yeah. I was like, oh, dude, she's going to like I don't know what's going to, I think she might murder them. Yeah, she's going to do it, or she's going to make it look like they murdered her somehow. I'm not sure. When I saw it whatever the scene was where she went and killed the chicken and took the blood I was like uh-oh, blood. I was like yeah, uh-oh, yeah, something dark's about to happen. You know, yeah, and you know she ends up, you know, burning the house down and kind of staging her own death or abduction by leaving some like blood and clothes behind, and then she just runs off on her people were like a hobo came in and took her and burnt the house down and I was like, when has that ever been the case? Yeah, you know what I mean. Oh yeah, I'm not seeing a lot of home intruder elbows.

1:38:39 I'll be honest. No kidding, and she just goes off and heads off into a life of prostitution for a while. And that's what she's doing, because she wants to learn more. Yeah, it's not about like she enjoys sex. I don't think she enjoys sex at all. No, I think it's just that she wants to learn more about the craft of manipulating and controlling via sex. And then she gets to this point where you know she minor character in the book, you know is her like, basically her pimp, more or less. You know, Mr Edwards, Mr Edwards, you know, is her like basically her pimp, more or less.

1:39:26 You know, mr edwards, you know, and they run off together, um, and then I forget what culminates their fight. So he, he realizes, uh, he like sees through her one night, oh, yeah, because she gets drunk and she's no longer the sexy seductive woman here's. The thing is like kathy's kryptonite is alcohol. Yeah, when she gets drunk she she, her true self, her, her golem comes out. Yeah, she's gone, and the golem's coming out she can't hide anything. And, um, he realizes it, he's scared, he goes home. And then he realizes, like wait a second. Like I'm a pimp, like I, I have the means to control this and get the reins on this. And so he goes back and essentially beats her and tells her like here's the deal.

1:40:06 You're no longer my personal lover, we're done. I loved you, I worshipped you, and you ruined that. Uh, so now I'm going to take you to one of the whorehouses and you'll work there until I move you to the next one. And then the next one, yeah, and that's what you know culminates in their, like their final fight yeah, and then you know, in it in, he beats her within an inch of her life oh yeah, dude, like he tried, it's a brutal. Like you, I understand kathy's evil and I know this is coming like literally 2 000 words after she just murdered her parents in cold blood. But, dude, the way describes him being on her I was like damn dude, that's tough.

1:40:48 I don't delight in it you know what I mean, and that's interesting the way steinbeck can write that and make you not delight in this clearly evil satan incarnate. Yeah, antichrist, yeah, uh, getting beaten, you know and he intended to kill her. He just didn't, wasn't successful and this is where she gains a market cane as well. Yeah, you know very clearly like almost word for word in some like uh descriptions to to charles's mark and so the what's interesting here is like her plan in life was not to come into adam's life, but that was a hiccup, but she did, unfortunately for adam yeah right and so, uh, she's found on their doorstep.

1:41:43 You know she's dragged herself onto it, beaten with an inch of her life, and at this point you know he's taken in by adam and rejected by charles, and you know the Charles piece rejecting her. That like getting back to where you said we were talking about before, where people who see through her stuff, you know who can see, the people who make her uncomfortable and she doesn't want to be around, the ones who can know who she is. I think even before that too, charles' rejection is moral. I think even before that too, charles' rejection is moral. And that like it's like Adam. What will people think if they find out there's a woman beaten into an introvert life in our bedroom and the two of us live alone with no women?

1:42:26 Right, they're going to think we keep her here shacked up as sex slave. You know that's what he's alluding. He's like the right thing to do is to get the doctor and take her into town. Yeah, also, what if the person comes back looking to finish her off? Right, like it's another moment where we see Charles as like, not logical, yeah, not antagonistic, but like logical and moral. And the, and then, as she starts to come to you know and be around, he does also now. He, he sees into her and she does not come to you know and be around, he does also now he, he sees into her and she does not like that, you know, and she's faking that she can't talk and she doesn't remember the stuff. Be honest, I think you do know your name.

1:43:06 Yeah, I think you do know who beat you up and I don't trust you. He just tells her straight up. He just tells her straight up and this is where Adam the farm boy died. Now we have the new Adam. This is where Born again. Yeah, this is where sin comes into Adam's life. This is the golden calf baby. This is All those things. Yeah, yeah, it's the idol and he's in, he's so blinded and tempted and fully succumbs to her as the apple like and because steinbeck even talks about, like how he really makes her into something.

1:43:51 She's not. Yeah, like he just the concept of what she could be and what his life could be with her is becomes all he wants, regardless of who she is literally in front of him which I think is a great like analogy for sin in our life, just like it's like. Yeah, man, like I can see it, I can see my life, I can see the lamborghinis, I can see like, like, I could like, whatever like whatever am I driving? yeah, like whatever that like, whatever the the, the thing is your idol, your lust. You know it's like I could see. You know my life could be so great with you. Know this, that and the other, and like you just get blinded to the fact that, like you think that the way to get to what you want is by basically drinking this poison.

1:44:39 You know it's like if I put a bottle in front of you that just said miracle elixir that will make everything go away, and then also on the back it just said fine print was like rat poison, do not drink. And you're just like now this will do it. This is what I need and this is what happened is I think that's what's happened to adam in this, where he's just fully consumed by, by her um, and so they end up getting married, just, and she's just, and this is once again. Kathy's now re-entered playing the long game because she has no money. That was the other thing too. She lost her fortune. She had a bunch of money saved up $10,000, whatever saved up From being a whore that she lost.

1:45:26 And now Adam is just a means to her. Now, at this point, he is going to provide for her, protect for her, her and get her where she needs to go. And so she just starts. she just plays the character, plays the long game and, um, as she heals, I mean because she's messed up like I don't know the specific time frame, but it seems like she has to heal for going on a couple months before she could even really like probably talk and walk, because I mean it says her teeth got knocked out on one side and her jaw was busted, so I imagine there was quite a while before she could even really communicate with adam right proficiently.

1:46:12 But yeah, I mean like they true, we know it's coming, we know it's coming from the first time. Adam Gets like immediately goo goo eyes For her and he comes in one day and he proposes that they get married. And we know this is bad dude and we know like Kathy's gonna Handle it just like a snake would and be like excited. But Adam, give me some time, just so she can get her things in order. She's gonna say, yes, yeah, but it's just so, that way she can uh confirm the plan. And she knew she, that's what she wanted. She wanted adam to propose, so that way she could control him. Um, and in this you know the the marriage occurs legally.

1:46:56 They have, I can't remember, did they? They didn't go somewhere, they had someone come to them or did they go into town or did they have someone come to them? well they. They went into town. Charles thought he was going to drop her off at the train. Oh, yeah, yeah. And he took her to town and married her and showed back up with her and charles like what the heck bro, what? and adam like comes back. He's like he doesn't even give charles a moment to like argue. He's just like we're leaving. We're taking half of our inheritance. I'll sell you my half of the farm if you want, for cheap. I'll give it to you if you want, but we're leaving, yeah, and charles is like adam, she's a freaking snake man. Like she's gonna take everything you have. Like you're're going to be miserable. Adam and dude, oh my gosh, the gut punch.

1:47:40 Like we hear from Kathy's mind that she recognizes some of herself in Charles and she tells Adam hey, I'm too beat up to consummate our marriage, so let's just rest and stuff. And Adam's like oh yeah, no big deal deal. And she gives Adam a little bit of her own Medicine for the pain, some opium in his tea, a lot of it. And he clonks out. And while he's sleeping she goes to Charles' room and she Flings the covers over and tells Charles To move over. And Charles protests. And this is the thing that made my skin crawl. It was like all she said over and over was move over.

1:48:24 That was her counter argument to everything Charles argued against and all she had to say was move over. Three times before Charles breaks and he sleeps with his brother's wife after knowing and saying she's a snake, she's a villain, and the last things that we hear from charles in part one is like that damned fool in reference to his own brother and it hurts, man. It hurts so bad to see Charles and Adam They'd gone through highs and lows, feels like they'd repaired their brotherhood multiple times and just to see like Charles immediately realizes Kathy is everything I'd warned him about and he can't deny her for the sake of honoring his brother.

1:49:14 And I think this is where, like part of Cain, the nature of Cain comes out in the beginning, where it's just like it's just like he cause. There is a thing and there is a bitterness in him towards Adam too. They've been working on everything, and he does love his brother, but at the same time, like you're leaving me, he he still, just like when they were kids, wants, wants to hurt his brother, wants to. You know, punish, punish his brother. And even a sense of competition. This is winning a competition. Yeah, Right, like this is like all those things that he, like, he made the semi-valiant effort at rejecting, but it was, it was set in stone.

1:49:55 Yeah, also that it was, it was set in stone. Yeah, also that it was gonna happen. Like during that scene, I wasn't for a second being like, oh, he's making out out of this one a lot I was like he's he's not putting up to a good enough fight. Yeah, I was like you do it even. Yeah, it was just like from the beginning I was like I was like he has no chance. I knew at the moment that she told adam that she wasn't gonna be a love sex. Oh yeah, I was like he has no chance. I knew at the moment that she told Adam that she wasn't going to be allowed to have sex. Oh yeah, I was like she's going after Charles tonight. Like I hate her so much I wish she would have died. Anyways, well, we've been going on for a while, ken, hope you've been enjoying and all that. And if you haven't listened to um East of Eden, get it now in audible.

1:50:39 You can get it through our links. It's on our website, east of Eden. You can click the audio book icon. It'll take you right to it to order it. Um and uh, start listening to it so you can get ahead before we drop the next weeks. But, um, I guess just you know. For sign off, pat, you know what is kind of like. Like when were you hooked in part one? When was it in part one that you're like all right, mick is right, I'm listening to this for the rest of the way through, because I was pushing you, I was pushing you, I was like Pat you got to listen to this book. Yeah, I think like even right there in that first chapter, the writing I was like all right, this is good, you know. And then like definitely, the scene with like that tension we talked about between charles and adam, and like that whole thing going on, I was like, okay, like we've got ourselves not just like some of these old stories they can be pretty bland too Like it could be just the scenery, talking part or just the philosophizing part, the whole time.

1:51:40 This has all of it too. It's got, you know, it's got some action, but it also, you know, it's got some good pacing, all these things too. So that's where I was hooked too. I was like, ok, like this is a long book, long book, but it's not just gonna be a slog, right yeah, I think I was the same way. I think that scene is what sealed me up to like, alright, I'm gonna listen to this the rest of the way through, just to find out what is gonna happen to these brothers. Um, if not for anything else, but uh, yeah, thanks for joining us, ken. Appreciate y'all, pat. Anything else to sign off with? Yeah, no, thanks for joining us, ken. Appreciate y'all, pat. Anything else to sign off with? yeah, no thanks for joining us for part one. It ended wild with this crazy woman coming after this brother's bits, and that's where it ended it ended right there.

1:52:30 It just the scene ended cut scene and so you know, we're like, like we said, we going to do this in a couple parts, so come back to keep going. The story goes on from here and we've got years to cover, years and years to cover. Generations so let's get back with us next week and we're going to keep going through it Till next time.